Merged thread on GM and current conditions

[AVortec]

Short video. Customer with faith in GM buys an Avalanche...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27119757#27119757

[amd1900mp]

Someone needs to tag that guy!

[INresponse]

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200811071334DOWJONESDJONLINE000686_FORTUNE5.htm

"DETROIT -(Dow Jones)- General Motors Corp. (GM) warned Friday that it risks running out of cash in the first half of next year without government intervention or a reversal of weakening market conditions.

The largest U.S. auto maker also indicated that merger talks with No. 2 Chrysler LLC had ended and it was focused on boosting its precarious liquidity position through an extra $5 billion in cuts and savings."

Things do not look good for the American Auto Industry.  I suspect the government may be making yet another donation of our tax dollars, but I hope it doesn't get that bad. 

"The company's cash and liquidity position fell to $16.2 billion at the end of the quarter compared with $21 billion at June 30. GM has said it needs $11 billion to $14 billion to fund normal operations.

It will look to raise an additional $5 billion in cash, in addition to the earlier $15 billion it previously said it planned to raise.

New cost-cutting moves include $2.5 billion in capital spending reductions, a $500 million reduction in salaried worker expenses and $1.5 billion in additional structural cost reductions in North America."

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am having visions of 1979 all over again.   

[Montana Tracy]

I have a good friend who is an automotive engineer for GM.  We have discussed this situation a number of times.  His insider viewpoint is interesting and revealing.

In addition to the soft market, GM, along with Chrysler and Ford, get fat and happy when the market is good.  They put a lot of faith in the SUV and truck market because it was the most profitable, but didn't consider rising fuel prices that would send that part of the market skidding.

Too, my friend claims, GM has put themselves in a bind by all the high cost retirement packages promoted by the UAW and white collar workers.  It is eating their lunch.

Pride is part of it too.  They, in the past, have considered themselves invincible.  In the meantime, Honda and Toyota have been doing their homework and listening to the markets closer.

The currently falling fuel prices can't hurt their situation for this next quarter.  Buyers are quick to go back to their old ways when fuel goes down.  I really enjoy the Av, but probably wouldn't have it were it not for pulling our travel trailer.  I have a company vehicle so we don't need another vehicle.  The Avvy is it (and I'm glad for it).

[MS03 2500]

I don't think buyers will be running back to Trucks any time soon "once burned'.

[AVnFun]

Once the Gov't made the mistake of bailing out their buddies, every large corp wants a piece. Greed is an American way, and I am guilty of it as well. Have you seen the money paid out in the past? I am not talking the about the Blue collar worker. But the White collar guys have stuck it to the hard workers that have put there life into building our trucks, cars and SUV's. And now that they have nearly bankrupt a great company, they still pay themselves huge amounts and yet want the Gov't to bail them out.
Maybe just maybe, they need to cut back on the spending on all these sponsorships that are out there. Maybe spend less on the commercials.. There is so much that can be done. And I am not sure our Gov't can help.

[Denman]

I believe we have only seen the tip of the Iceberg and will not get better anytime soon.  Let us hope that something can be worked out to help save the US car industry and the economy in general,  because we are in deep doo doo folks.

[INresponse]

If Americans do not stop buying foreign name plate vehicles we wont have any American owned manufacturers.  Try and find clothes made in the USA.  Few and far in between.  The labor is cheaper in other countries, a well known fact.  Even though Toyota and the others claim to be American Made the fact is the majority of the parts are made in other countries and only assembled here. 

What I do not understand is why the UAW demands union wages for all US and Canadian workers, truckers, small shop suppliers, etc.,  but they allow UAW workers to assemble the few Toyota Camry's that are assembled in the US.
copied from a UAW web site
http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2007/index.cfm
"Because of the integration of U.S. and Canadian vehicle production, all vehicles on this list include significant UAW-made content and support the jobs of UAW members.

However, those vehicles marked with an asterisk (*) are sourced from the United States and another country. When purchasing one of these models, check the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN.) A VIN beginning with “1,” “4” or “5” identifies a U.S.-made vehicle; “2” identifies a Canadian-made vehicle. Not all vehicles made in the United States or Canada are made by union-represented workers. The Toyota Corolla, for example, is made in the United States by UAW members, but the Canadian model is made in a nonunion plant and other models are imported from a third country. To be sure you have a union-made vehicle, buy one of the vehicles on this list.

UAW members are assembling foriegn made, non-union made parts.  The cars are cheaper priced because they use cheaper labor and cheaper parts.

Someday some people will wake up and after eating their daily ration of 'Rice Crispies' they will realize they cannot afford to put gasoline in their Toyota because the workers in Japan refuse to support our welfare system.

I hope it does not come to this, but I do not see a bright light at the end of the tunnel, only a faint glow.   

Edited to tone it down a bit.

[AVnFun]

Here's another one...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/11/AR2008111103075.html?nav=rss_print/asection



Don't take this wrong, its just one of my many views concerning not just GM but all major corps..
Cut the excess first,
Cut the pay for the executives (NOT THE BLUE COLLAR WORKERS) and don't offer them a buyout or stocks or any of that, if they don't like it then see ya!
Stop with all these bonus's you don't need them you make enough, if at your pay rate you haven't saved then TS on you. Scale down your living.
Stop all the useless over-hyped adds in every magazine that comes along, pic 2 mags and stick with it.
Stop sponsoring every little group that wants a free handout.

And once you can prove that you have stopped all the over spending and pay and it has been thoroughly investigated by an outside source that you have, then if your still in trouble after 2 years of cuts ask the Feds to help you out but not bail you out.


Like I said it just my opinion and how I feel about all this bail out crap, it like the ole saying " Opinions are like a******s and everyone has one"

And mine is talking today, so don't get me going. 

[Lord Aries]

I agree, while I understnad that the US CAN NOT afford to loose the big three, thre are plenty of things that can be cut to scale back. Hell the exec's are the ones responsible for running these companies into the ground while watching the economy shrink and their pockets grow...

I am fine with a bail out for the auto industry, as long as it is handeled properly and the right people get what's coming to them.

[TIETANIC]

I don't think anyone should help Chrysler.  Chrysler was bailed out once already.  And Chrysler is also privately owned.  Just a year or two ago when Chrysler was owned by (oh sorry, MERGED WITH) Daimler, they said something along the lines of not wanting to be associated with American Car companies because their quality is on par with Honda and Toyota.  (I think I destroyed a computer monitor when I spit my coffee out all over the screen at that point).  They distance themselves from America, then put their hand out when they shoot themselves in the foot (again).

They run two or three year cycles of: "Notorious Quality Problems", "Reinventing themselves", "More Quality Problems".

They are in trouble because they are top heavy and they build lousy cars.  Plain and simple.  People don't buy their cars because they can get something that will last for the same money.  A search of the net for Chrysler problems (and a search of any breakdown lane in the country for that matter) shows Chrysler has left many people high and dry.  I am 100% against giving Chrysler ANY money.

The "highest initial quality" thing is a joke.  No car should come from the factory with problems.  The car company just had it in their possession and checked it.  What I want to see is you compare a 3 year old American car with a 3 year old Honda.  All NEW cars are nice, I want to see people test an old Toyota against a Chrysler of the same year and see which one rattles, bottoms out, smokes, stalls, has ripped seats etc.

Unions have made their workers into dead weight and this is why they cut costs on quality.  Millions of other people go to work every day with no guarantee of a job the next day.  If the working conditions suck, you go somewhere else.  If Chrysler goes under, there will be another American startup in it's place in a month with the same workers.  The overly paid CEO's cut the people doing the work when there are cuts, they never cut themselves.

I just can't feel bad about Chrysler after they have screwed so many people.  Sympathy is in the dictionary between sh** and syphillis. 

[AVnFun]

  Sympathy is in the dictionary between sh** and syphilis. 

You Have just made my day! I have never heard that before. 

And I agree 100% about Chrysler should NOT be bailed out anymore.

[TIETANIC]

 

LOVE that one.  And someone on here once used "someone p!s*ed in his Wheaties".  I use that one all the time now.

[Lord Aries]

Unfortunately you can not cut out one of the big three out of the Bail Out plain just because you don’t like their product. You can talk about quality all you want, the problem is majority rules. Just because you or a friend had a bad Chrysler does not mean everyone hates their Chrysler product. Just like how picky/loving we are about our AV’s, we only represent probably 5% (if that much) of all AV owners in the US.

I’ve known plenty of people that love their Chrysler/Dodge products that they drive. I also have known plenty of people that owned GM’s and had nothing but problems with them. Same for Honda, Toyota, etc, etc… When ever a product is mass produced there will be ones that are perfect and ones that aren’t. Everyone’s owner experience is different; every car/truck that rolls off the line is going to have its own quirky personality and I would personally NEVER expect a new vehicle to be trouble free.


Yes, the Exec’s are the ones who need to be primarily reprimanded for their incompetence in running a company. BUT, the workers are not with out blame either! Thanks to Unions demanding extravagant pay and benefits to do mediocre jobs, the companies have had to increase costs of the product and cut corners to stay on top. Do you think it’s right that a line worker with a High School education (or less) that puts the door panels on a car make’s over $50k a year? So, in reality the Exec’s AND the workers share a percentage of the blame…


I guess my point is that in the end, the problem usually isn’t skin deep…

[TIETANIC]

Unfortunately you can not cut out one of the big three out of the Bail Out plain just because you don’t like their product.

Yes, but you can cut them out if they are the only one that is privately owned.

[Lord Aries]

Yes, but you can cut them out if they are the only one that is privately owned.

The whole point of the bail out is to protect the hundreds of thousands of jobs that depend on the big three... Considering we are at 1.5 Million job losses this year, I can't imagine what would happen if you threw another 200,000 plus people into the unemployment line. 

[Flint4x4]

As a longstanding UAW member I am unsure how to respond without it sounding political.

It's not just GM or the automobile industry but the entire economy at stake. Not just the United States economy either because like it or not we have a world economy now, (which more or less means if the USA sinks we take everyone else with us).

There is plenty of blame to go around, many would call it a market readjustment or back to reality. People that overspent are getting hammered while the government decided to bail out financial institutions that allowed them to overspend.

GM, Ford and Chrysler are getting undue blame for building large profitable trucks & SUVs while ignoring the less lucrative car market. That's a crock because GM has a very competive line of cars that are comparable or better than Toyota or Honda but the only way they have been able to sell them is to underprice them which was possible during the years of luxury truck/SUV profits.

I'm not in danger of losing my job (I don't think) just my wages and benefits seriously cut if GM goes bankrupt. The product I build will still sell and they can't afford to move it elsewhere at the moment.

[AVnFun]

The whole point of the bail out is to protect the hundreds of thousands of jobs that depend on the big three... Considering we are at 1.5 Million job losses this year, I can't imagine what would happen if you threw another 200,000 plus people into the unemployment line. 

If they cut in front of  me there will be a few less....



Just heard there will be no bail out for the banks as of now... Yeah w/e.

[Flint4x4]

Thanks to Unions demanding extravagant pay and benefits to do mediocre jobs, the companies have had to increase costs of the product and cut corners to stay on top. Do you think it’s right that a line worker with a High School education (or less) that puts the door panels on a car make’s over $50k a year? So, in reality the Exec’s AND the workers share a percentage of the blame…

Wait right there: it's not extravagant pay and it's more like over $70K a year now plus benefits. Many of us are college educated but we enjoy doing what backbreaking labor the robots haven't taken over from us yet. I work more than 5 times as hard as I did in 1985 and part of my job is to monitor 5 robots that do the job of quite a few men, what year were you born Lord Aries ?

[AVnFun]

Wait right there: it's not extravagant pay and it's more like over $70K a year now plus benefits. Many of us are college educated but we enjoy doing what backbreaking labor the robots haven't taken over from us yet. I work more than 5 times as hard as I did in 1985 and part of my job is to monitor 5 robots that do the job of quite a few men, what year were you born Lord Aries ?

Well, I sure didn't have to wait long for that....    So Flint you got passed the BS a few weeks back? I take it you did and all is well. 

[Flint4x4]

I'm UAW and GM will have to declare bankruptcy to invalidate my contract.   

Seriously, we have lost so many GM jobs in the City of Flint over the years you have no understanding of what it has done to the community unless you're from a steeltown or other manufacturing hub that has been devastated by job losses. It's not just the workers in the plants, we have entire strip malls boarded up that were once prime locations.

That's today and it's not a pretty picture if it gets worse

[Lord Aries]

Wait right there: it's not extravagant pay and it's more like over $70K a year now plus benefits. Many of us are college educated but we enjoy doing what backbreaking labor the robots haven't taken over from us yet. I work more than 5 times as hard as I did in 1985 and part of my job is to monitor 5 robots that do the job of quite a few men, what year were you born Lord Aries ?

If you are college educated and/or have been doing for a long time then by all means, you have earned and deserve to make what you make. But, 20 years olds that make what you make to do the same thing with no education or experience, that’s wrong! That doesn’t bother you? Literally a week ago I was talking to a guy while waiting in line at a store about just this and he was telling me about his sister’s husband up in PA (high school drop out) that works on a line making $65k a year w/benefits most would kill for… Guess what he does… He sits on a stool and counts bags some little plastic parts and puts them in a box. THATS IT!!! Why is that a $65k a year job? OK so he may be more pron to back problems

Yes, there are line jobs that are damn well worth that kind of pay. I hold MIG and Stick welder certifications and know that it ain’t easy work…

Now before you get the wrong idea, I don’t think unions are necessarily a bad thing in every case. There have been plenty of times were unions fought what was rightfully deserved. But, this is a trend not seen in a long time. Now it’s usually demands that are for extravagant pay, excess benefits and excess paid time off plans

I’m sorry but, unions have demanded too much for too long. I am 100% convinced that this a major reason of why so many companies have moved to over seas production. US companies can’t afford to pay union workers the compensation that they demand. You don’t have to be old or young to look at history and see that a lot of work started going over seas when line workers here started making exorbitant pay. Sure, plants here could never be as cheap as over seas but, we could have a lot more plants here if workers didn’t demand so much.

Oh and what about Police, Fire and jobs of the like? I think they deserve to make the kind of money the guy sitting on a stool makes… My cousin has been a LEO for a few years and he is barley making high $20’s! He HAS a 2 year college education and has even been injured on the job… Can honestly tell me that that guy sitting on the stool deserves to make $40k a year more then a COP that puts his life on line?

[Aussie Red]

People better hope and pray they do not collapse. GM is the largest and owns much more then Chevy. If these giants go under and if you think it is all there fault you are wrong and if they fall you will regret it I know that for a fact.

[AVnFun]

People better hope and pray they do not collapse. GM is the largest and owns much more then Chevy. If these giants go under and if you think it is all there fault you are wrong and if they fall you will regret it I know that for a fact.

looks like the GMAC will go first.

[Flint4x4]

I didn't say I had a college degree however I do have some college and am higher educated than my instructors in many instances. I can MIG/TIG stick or oxy/acetylene weld, I can run a press, I was an electronics tech in the US Army and understand atomic theory. I'm not saying we don't have some ignorant workers but there aren't many anymore.

Lord Aries, I wasn't picking on you as a person but the way you portrayed autoworkers. I'm ashamed to say new workers get half my pay and little of the same UAW benefits (benefits I may never live to see anyway).

GM owns Holden and Saab and who knows what else