Transmission Fluid And Filter Change

[wayno]

All,

Just curious if anyone has done a transmission fluid and filter change on the Av.  I've seen a few threads regarding this subject but nothing about the actual procedure and potential issues or things to look out for.

Thanks,

Wayno

[LazKat]

Another 8K miles and I'll tell you all about it...  I'll switch to synth ATF at that time.

[marc_w]

I'll be doing mine at 30K here... within the next two months.

A real rough procedure:

You'll want a large container to catch the fluid, and plenty of cardboard or plastic to throw down around the container if you want to save the surface your working on.  It's a very very messy job.

I don't know exactly how much new fluid you'll need.  I think between 4-6 quarts. I believe the manual states the exact amount.

There are a number of bolts all around the transmissions oil pan.  I think there are about 12-16 or so. I heard the best procedure is to remove all of the 'center' bolts, and leave the four corners rather tight.  You can go ahead and do that.  

The bolts between the corners are probably seeping by now, and you're already making a mess.  You'll want to start to back out one of those corner bolts.  This is where all hell breaks loose.  The fluid will start to flow, and go wherever it chooses.  You will start to back out the other corner bolts a bit at a time, so that nothing is left torqued down too hard all by itself.  It's best to do it so that one of the corners of the pan is just a little lower than the rest, so the fluid will hopefully spill in that direction.

(edit)
Pull the bracket for the shift linkage up and out of the way. I believe this is held on with those center bolts.  In some cases you might have to disconnect it, but I don't think you will with the 4L60E's.  I pull mine up and out with some wire or wire ties. It just makes this stressfull job easier.

When the fluid has stopped dumping, you can support the pan with one hand, and remove the bolts completely.  Keep the catch-pan nearby, because there is still a ton of fluid in the pan... get ready for the weight when you pull out those last few bolts.

When they're free, tilt the pan a bit to try and drain out as much fluid in the pan as you can.  When you've done that, you'll probably have to finagle the pan a bit to get it to clear crossmembers, exhausts, and shift linkages.  You'll spill some more fluid doing this.

Once the pan is down and out of the way, you'll see the valve body sitting there slowly raining fluid around your catch-can.  The filter is usually a 4x4 or 5x5-ish (in inches) sized flat piece of black plastic, hanging off the valve body.  I believe you can see the filter element from underneat - it's usually white.

Pull down / unsnap the filter. It's just held in with friction.  Depending on what filter kit you have, you'll also have to retrieve a plastic collar (with a metal ring around it) up inside the valve body in the cylinder you just pulled the filter out of.  This is the biggest PITA of this job.  It's hard to get at with conventional tools, and you don't want to gouge the cylinder that the sleeve is sitting in.  Once you get it wiggled free, it comes out easily.  My method to remove the collar was to drive through one side of it with a sharp screwdriver.  this split it down one side, and allowed it to be coaxed out easier.

Once that's out - tap in the new one with a wooden dowel or something soft like that.  It's easy.

In all honestly, if I come across this again, I will probably not go this extra step to remove/reinstall the collars.  I didn't see any difference between them, and the new and old fiters fit the same either way.

Install the new filter in the same location as the other.  Wiggle it around to make sure it's nice and snug.

Clean out the brownish sediment that adheres to the metal in the pan... make sure the sealing surfaces are clean.    Now would be a great time to install a tranny-drain-plug kit... so that the next time you do this it won't be NEARLY as messy.

I used RTV sealer on my gastets, althought you really don't have to. I just ran a thin bead around both sides of the gasket, and stuck it to the pan.  

I positioned the pan back up onto the tranny, and boltd it up.  I don't have the torque specs handy, but they're quite light.

Fill the tranny with fluid... I think 4 quarts rings a bell with me...

Start the truck, and slide the shifter through all gear ranges.  Let everything warm up and leave the truck in park.... Engine running.  Fill the fluid as needed....

You're all set.

--
There are other ways of doing this too, but this is a standard filter/oil change.  There is still about twice as much fluid left in the torque converter... This is where a profesional flush would come into play, if you wanted to flush out all 10-12-to however many quarts are in the system.

I've heard of people disconnecting a tranny cooler line, and feeding fluid in the dipstick hole until clean stuff comes out of the cooler line, but I personally don't like that idea too much.

Hope this helps...

[marc_w]

One thing I thought was interesting:

I've heard stories of shops doing this job an odd way:

They put your vehicle up on a lift, take a punch, and give your tranny-pan a good wack.  The fluid will drain out of the hole.

When it's time to put everything back together, they weld up the hole, and clean it up.

The two benefits of this would be that, A: it's not as messy as the standard method of doing things (If you don't have a tranny drain bolt), and B: When it's time to service the tranny again, the mechanic can go and say, "Oh, I've done this tranny X number of times." by counting the spot welds...

I dunno... food for thought....

[PUNISHER]

  isn't there a drain plug at the bottom of the tranny pan?  would you not use this to drain most, if not all, the fluid to avoid the mess you speak of?

[marc_w]

I'm 99.9999....9! % sure there is not one on the Av's...

There wasn't on the last two 4L60E's I've done....  

EDIT:  

Errr, yeah, this rough-procedure applies to the tranny's in the 1500's.

[PUNISHER]

  i just checked again.  i do have a plug in the tranny pan.  i do not understand why i have it, and no one else seems to.  i kinda think i know what i am talking about.  i do alot of side work on vehicles.  in the process of becoming ASE certified also.  if i am wrong i may need to rethink my career path.

[Jake C]

Mine also has the drain plug on the tranny pan. Its always looking me right in the face when i change the oil.

[Blueruck]

Good post Marc_W - I had to go back and double check that it was not one of 11H's post  

[Edward K]

There is some good info HERE - transmission fluid/filter change    I HIGHLY recommend the full system flush over the pan drain and fill.  (Just my opinion   )

[11H]

Blueruck,,,

I had to go back and double check that it was not one of 11H's post  

OOOK ... I see how it is now ...  

11H

BTW, all 4L60E's with a deep sump pan should have a drain plug... All 4x4 trucks from '99 on up to generalize should have a plug...

[TexAVfan]

11H is right about the drain plug of course and Edward K is also right about the flush being the better way to service the transmission fluid. A drain and refill of the pan every 20-30 thousand is OK but I would flush the entire fluid volume every 30-40 for best results. Synthetic Trans fluid is good but it is overkill if you service the fluid very often - it would be good for those who may go longer than is recommended between services to use synthetics.
Would not you agree 11H?  

[marc_w]

That's _AWESOME_ if we've got drain bolts...   I'm probably wrong!  I was the one who thought our truck still had steering wheel locks.

My '96 and '00 S10's... Both 4x4 w/4L60E's did _not_ have the drain plug...  

EDIT: and I don't remember their pans being particularily deep.  They probably weren't.  This is bugging me so much I might go lay in the mud to see what I got out there.

[11H]

TexAvfan,,,

Here's my opinionaire on the tranny fluid... No doubt about the "full flush" service... It is the best way to go... But not all of the technicians do it right ... I would stand there while it was done to be sure there was no doubt they got it all, and that they knew what they were doing...

Truthfully though, religiously dumping the pan every 25K and doing a new quality filter (if you have treated with Militec), you should be fine... Now if you pull a lot and it is more than a 3K load, then I would consider the full flush method...

On the synthetic opinionaire... I need to add to TexAvfan's rationale... I personally have not heard of any transmissions that have lasted any longer because of using synthetics ... I know 2 tranny builders that specialize in the 4L60E (mainly Vettes) and they all have told me that synthetic will not give you any longevity over a good brand of Dexron III ... In fact, some synthetics can hurt the transmission in a sense... I'm gonna get it for this one... LOL ... The clutch surfaces in an automatic are always slipping and sliding against each other during shifts... The surfaces have to contend with some serious heat sometimes ... These surfaces over the years have been upgraded to a much more heat resistant material to resist glazing ... So, in an automatic, these materials slipping together create more heat than if they engaged and disengaged with less slip... Synthetics will have a tendency to let the clutches slip more because the fluid is more slippery... So, when synthetics boast of "smoother shifts" that isn't always a GOOD thing in an automatic... The quicker and harder these clutches interact, the less heat they will be subjected to, hence less material shedded from them, and less chance for glazing of their surfaces... Now on the other hand, automatics build heat in other areas too ... This is where synthetics will do better than dino... But remember, when a tranny is rebuilt, a big part of the rebuild is new friction parts, not so much hard parts... So again in my opinion, I wanna save these friction parts from as much heat and wear as possible ... It's a double edged sword when you use synthetic fluid in an automatic... It can cause more heat/slippage with the friction materials within the trans, but will help the rest of the parts run cooler... So you need to decide ...

Lastly, I think the recommended fluid (Dexron III) is closer to synthetic than it ever has been, and is really an excellent fluid ... It is about 30-40% better than the previous Dexron II fluid ...

Another consideration... The trans fluid collects friction material dust and wear metals... This friction material and wear metals is what wears out a tranny quickly ... By doing frequent tranny fluid changes, you remove much or all of this friction material dust and metal from the tranny ... So, extended drain intervals can not be practiced with synthetics ... As it can be with the engine so to speak ...

FYI... I use Standard Valvoline Dexron III and drop the pan every 25K ... I treat the tranny every 30K with 2 oz of Militec ... I live in AZ heat and drive the truck hard... My fluid always comes out bright red and smells sweet ... I believe a name brand of standard Dexron III is purely adequate and synthetics are overrated in the tranny ... The new Dexron III is that good guys ... Plus, I don't like a sluggish tranny ...

So, Tex, I'm not a fan of syns in an automatic... And honestly with Militec, not a fan of them in the motor anymore either ... I dump the motor every 3K and the new GF-3 rating on oil is pretty damn close to syn; especially considering syn is not really syn anymore for 90% of the counter oils ...

11H over and out...

[TexAVfan]

Well put as usual 11H and I can say that this time I agree with you all the way with you agreeing with me  
So there you have it folks - do as you will but I believe the best way to go has been discussed for your reading pleasure!  

[marc_w]

I can defintely agree with your opinions on synthetics...  Even the motor oil oil one.  

"slippery" is bad in a tranny.

[aVOLanche]

 FWIW,the 4L60E tranny holds about 11 qts of fluid.A drop the oil pan and change the filter gets out about 5 qts.A drain through the plug gets only about 3 qts(about 25% of the total fluid).
 But tranny fluid is cheap.So one alternative is to drain through the plug and add an equal amount back(catch and measure what is drained).Then repeat several times.Start the truck and shift through the gears after each fill.If my figures are correct,doing this will give you these results:
1 drain-25% new fluid
2 drains-44% new fluid
3 drains-58% new fluid
4 drains-69% new fluid
5 drains-77% new fluid-that is about 15 qts of fluid used in an easy procedure-easier than an oil change.
 Contrast this to one drop the pan,drain,filter change which gives 45% new fluid.You can get the same result with 2 easy through the plug drain/refills(with no gasket,leaks,etc.).
  Granted,the filter should probably be done at some time(maybe 25 K).I agree that the synth is overkill.

[Hernz Av]

Alright guys I just did to my Av with 43,000 miles. Here are a few tips that I did not know. You will need a 13MM socket for the pan bolts, 15MM for the drain plug. I have a 2WD so I don't know if it is any different on 4WD. You will have to remove the shift cable and bracket. The nut for the shift cable is 13MM, then you will have a metal pin that keeps the cable in place, you will also have to push in two tabs to pull the cable out. Here is the hard part that had me cussing up a storm. The shift cable bracket has 2 size T40 torque bolts from the top. The were really tight. I have to use a small breaker bar with 3/8" rachet. The pan will NOT come out untill you remove the bracket. Once you get the pan out you will have oil all over the place. The next hard part is removing the filter sleeve. I used a small flat screwdriver to bend it and then pull it out with some needle nose pliers.

The only problem I had was I did not look hard enough to find out how many qts. I needed for this. The owner manuel does not tell you. The auto parts guys told me 6 qts. I put in 6 and found out it had too much. Good thing there is a drain plug and was able to drain the extra out.

[Durwin]

Cool way to guarantee repeat business from the bits of metal they leave in your transmission during the "wack"......

One thing I thought was interesting:

I've heard stories of shops doing this job an odd way:

They put your vehicle up on a lift, take a punch, and give your tranny-pan a good wack.  The fluid will drain out of the hole.

When it's time to put everything back together, they weld up the hole, and clean it up.

The two benefits of this would be that, A: it's not as messy as the standard method of doing things (If you don't have a tranny drain bolt), and B: When it's time to service the tranny again, the mechanic can go and say, "Oh, I've done this tranny X number of times." by counting the spot welds...

I dunno... food for thought....

[Durwin]

Ok folks,
  It's 12 midnight and transmission fluid is on my mind... What is wrong with this picture???

Ok, for those of you saying that synthetics would be bad in a transmission, how about this? Redline High Temp ATF meets the spec for Dexron III ATF. So, if it meets (or exceeds) the spec, why would it be bad for the tranny?

I'm wondering this because I'm considering Red Line High Temp ATF for the tranny in my 2500.
Any thoughts??
Durwin

[11H]

I'm wondering this because I'm considering Red Line High Temp ATF for the tranny in my 2500.

I'm not gonna try to talk you into synthetic nor standard fluid ... I think the info of why some don't personally consider it is all above in the thread... I actually went into some detail about my position... Yes, the Redline meets the spec... And is a great fluid... But meeting a manufacturer's spec is not totally what it's all about... Different fluids perform differently in certain applications and they all I am sure meet a minumum spec...

You will just not hear me justify a need for synthetics in a consumer light truck or car tranny ... But if you feel better with it in there, by all means ... That's what's important ...

11H

[Durwin]

Yes, I read  the thread. Very good information was presented. My Avalanche will be used for trips to Baja Mexico and off roading trips in the desert. In my opinion, not where you would find the average consumer vehicle. Among my reasons for a synthetic ATF is the high heat conditions that I will most likely be in. I also like the reliability of a synthetic in those situations. Each maker's fluid does have different characteristics.

I have used the Redline C+ fluid in my off road Dodge Ram, but I was unfamiliar with Redline's product for Dextron III. Does this fluid cause hard shifting when used in a GM tranny?

Lastly, I've been sold on synthetics. My Dodge took a lot of abuse and I ended up trading it in for the AV when the Dodge had 149K with no mechanical problems whatsoever. I'm hoping to do much better with the AV.
Durwin

[Wanna_AV]

Okay, I read everything but am not sure about the capacities.  My manual doesn't give the amount.  anyway I've a couple of questions on the topic since i'm wanting to change my fluid.
1.  Does anybody have a tip on draining the torque converter?  I'm guessing there's a drain plug on it, i'm just wondering if there's an access point.
2.  Why does draining the tranny fluid from the drain plug not remove as much fluid as when you pull the pan?  The plug is in the botton of the pan.
3.  And lastly, what are the capacities?  With only draining the pan, and then with draining the pan and the torque converter.

thanks

[TexAVfan]

Okay, I read everything but am not sure about the capacities.  My manual doesn't give the amount.  anyway I've a couple of questions on the topic since i'm wanting to change my fluid.
1.  Does anybody have a tip on draining the torque converter?  I'm guessing there's a drain plug on it, i'm just wondering if there's an access point.
2.  Why does draining the tranny fluid from the drain plug not remove as much fluid as when you pull the pan?  The plug is in the botton of the pan.
3.  And lastly, what are the capacities?  With only draining the pan, and then with draining the pan and the torque converter.

thanks

1.  There is not a drain plug on a GM torque converter.

2.  When the pan is dropped and the filter removed some fluid held in the valve body runs out - this fluid remains trapped in the valve body when only the pan drain plug is removed.

3.  A completely empty transmission holds around 12-13 Quarts I believe - when service is done by dropping the pan and changing the filter 4-5 quarts will be used depending on how long you let it drip. I suggest when the pan is replaced add 2 quarts - start vehicle and add additional fluid until the dipstick reads full - this way you will not overfill!

[Wanna_AV]

Thanks TexAVfan,  good information, and I followed the earlier link to your description of flush procedure, and learned more about the whole thing.  Sounds like taking it somewhere is the best bet - although I've never liked other people working on my cars and trucks.
I haven't been out here in while with the summer rush of vacation and all.  The forums and site are looking very good.  i'de liike to make some of the houston cruises in the future.  my problem withthe past is i'm always tied up.
thanks again.

[TexAVfan]

Thanks TexAVfan,  good information, and I followed the earlier link to your description of flush procedure, and learned more about the whole thing.  Sounds like taking it somewhere is the best bet - although I've never liked other people working on my cars and trucks.
I haven't been out here in while with the summer rush of vacation and all.  The forums and site are looking very good.  i'de liike to make some of the houston cruises in the future.  my problem withthe past is i'm always tied up.
thanks again.

You are most welcome and we all look forward to seeing you again - you have been MIA for a long time - but I still remember you and I hope you still get my e-mails on updates - you do right? Good to see you at least on the boards.

[mattie 03]

Hey guys,
In response to synthetic transmission fluid being more slippery than regular transmission fluid, it's not. Synthetic fluid is made with the same base oil as regalar transmission fluid. The advantage of synthetic transmission lube is it signifigantly cuts down on the oxidation. When tranmission fluid gets hot it oxidizes or forms a varnish. When a regular PAO fluid gets oxidized from stop and go traffic, hauling, etc.... it forms a varnish on the discs and you will eventually see some slippage. What the synthetic does is keep the oxidation down so the varnish does not form thus keeping the disc cleaner. As it says on the amsoil site, you can compare this to sandpaper. Wet sandpaper works just as well as dry sandpaper. The lubricating aspects  of the water on the sandpaper does not affect it's ability to do the job. It's no different with synthetics. Just like rinsing wet sandpaper removes the dust, syntheic fluid works in much the same way. I am planning to change the fluid in mine from the ATF to synthetic and also change the filter this weekend. I will do the full flush instead of just the pan drop and filter. Go to the amsoil site and read for yourself. I think you'll change your minds.

[mattie 03]

Well guys, it looks like a change of plans. I called the guy who's doing my transmission flush and he says his machine can't do the flush and put synthetic back in. He says he uses a cleaner first, then does a flush and then a back flush, refills the trans with a penzoil product transmisson fluid and adds a conditioner to the fluid. He says the conditioner plus the dexron III is really close to syntheic. He believes synthetic is over kill in the transmission but not in the engine. He also says (like I've seen posted earlier by 11h I think) that the filter doesn't need to be changed in the 4L60 transmissions. When the cleaner goes through it, it looks brand new when it's done. I really trust his opinion so I'll try that. Has anyone heard about this penzoil trans fluid and the conditioner? He says with regular maintenance the transmission being flushed each time should keep it trouble free.  

[MadDad]

I helped an Amsoil dealer/friend flush the tranny on my Dakota last year. We did the usual drop pan/change filter. Then we disconnected the tranny line at the top of the radiator. Put a clear hose on the radiator outlet, filled the pan back up and started the engine. We added oil at @ the same rate that it was coming out of the hose. When we hit fresh oil we could see the difference in color. Hooked everything back up topped the tranny off to the correct level and that was it.  

I haven't looked to see if there is a drain plug on my AV's tranny, hope so. What we did on th Dakota was use a small pump with a long suction hose, one of those cheapies you attach to a drill,  to remove as much as we could from the pan before removing it.

[mattie 03]

The transmission flush is done and man what a difference. $85.00, better shifts, more power, smoother transmission feel, worth every penny.

[02 Z71]

I just did my 50k service and changed my tranny filter.  What a pain in the a$$!!!!  After trying for several hours to get the T40 bolts out of the shift linkage bracket, I just gave up.  There is very little room to work or to get anything up there to get these darn T40 bolts off and they are extremely tight.

As Hernz Av has said earlier in this tread, you cannot get the pan off without the shift linkage bracket being removed.  I did manage to pull the filter off and get it out of the pan with the pan just dropped - this is not easy but it can be done.  I also managed to get the pan pushed back far enough to get the filter sleeve out and replaced.  

In my pan, the magnet was not attached to anything, just sitting in the bottom of the pan, so I just pullled the magnet out and cleaned it off, wiped out the pan and put the magnet back in.

After putting it all back together I put about 3.5 qts to get it to the correct level.

[djfcars]

Does the Chevy service people do the full system flush?

[fireeater]

Did the trans flush, trans filter, oil change, and fuel filter change today. Man what a difference. I couldn't believe how well the truck ran after pulling it out of the dealership. Just so everyone knows, the service manager told me that the 8.1 does NOT have a PCV valve.

Fireeater

Thanks to everyone who gave advice in this thread. Very happy with the outcome and the comfort of knowing that my truck is being serviced properly.

[nnjav]

Fireeater,

what did Tranny flush, tranny filter change, oil and fuel filter change cost at your dealer?

[Z66Modder]

The auto parts store computer states add 5 quarts and warm up for 3 to 5 mins., then check level; add as needed.

[DigitalBoy0101]

You will have to remove the shift cable and bracket. The nut for the shift cable is 13MM, then you will have a metal pin that keeps the cable in place, you will also have to push in two tabs to pull the cable out. Here is the hard part that had me cussing up a storm. The shift cable bracket has 2 size T40 torque bolts from the top. The were really tight. I have to use a small breaker bar with 3/8" rachet. The pan will NOT come out untill you remove the bracket. Once you get the pan out you will have oil all over the place. The next hard part is removing the filter sleeve. I used a small flat screwdriver to bend it and then pull it out with some needle nose pliers.

I'm in the middle of a fluid/filter change RIGHT NOW and this is the information I need. Stupid shift cable bracket is driving me batty. You say there's 2 T40 bolts for the bracket? I only feel one with my fingers so far, interesting.

The cable bracket also (mostly) covers 2 pan bolts. I thought I'd get by by gently bending the bracket out of the way and somehow got the bolts removed, but now the pan still won't drop. Guess the cable bracket really does need to be removed, and now you've given me the bit size I need.

Thanks for this post!

*edit* I HAVE to remove the pan, because I have to replace the 1-2 and 2-3 shift solenoids. I'll be wrestling with those T40 bolts for as long as it takes, and it sounds like I can expect to be fighting with them for several hours........what a PITA.

[cadboy1]

I just used a C-clamp squeezing the bracket to the front driveshaft and that gave me the room to pull the pan. I read it on here somewhere 

[Z66Modder]

I just bent mine too.

[RogerT]

I called my local dealer yesterday, they recommend doing the flush and fill as the only way they change trans. fluid. Their cost is $139.95 plus tax with no appt. needed.

[Z66Modder]

I called my local dealer yesterday, they recommend doing the flush and fill as the only way they change trans. fluid. Their cost is $139.95 plus tax with no appt. needed.

But you still need to do the filter at some point.

[RogerT]

Their service includes a filter change with the flush and fill.