2nd Cad Nav in the Av - In & Working! PART 1

[duramaxHD]

sorry...the picture didnt attach

[duramaxHD]

Three files in the mail.

The presentation abilities of posting, limit the posting of this doc, the way it's formatted.
It would need to be in normal text form or a screen capture/pic and hasn't been done yet. A zip would also work but any of these would need update tracking. So I just e-mail them from PM requests.

Sperry- Could you please email me these same files that you sent sfakeith? I basically just need the complete schematics/ pin outs/ wiring splice diagrams/ connection to VSS/ EVERYTHING  needed to upgrade a UC6/cheap bose amp to a LUXURY Y91 amp and LUXURY TNR.
I have RSA and XM but no RSE. I also plan to add the Escalade/Denali 6CD changer to the LUX TNR. my email is penguin1494@gmail.com  

Thanks again, I really appreciate it--- Ben

[sperry]

Sent - Let me know of any probs...

HTH!

[Pendlum]

Yes, we are going to offer that complete upgrade package, TNR with Y91 amp. Problem we're having is finding a reputable company that can make the wiring harnesses to my standards. You wouldn't believe how difficult it is.  
If anyone can recommend a company, I'm listening. We've been through 3 different companies and as you can tell, the package isn't available yet. Needless to say I'm a little miffed.

Drop me an email if you know of a good wiring harness company.

[duramaxHD]

Jason- I can't say I have any experience with them, but looking through the website (not that this says much) that i found by searching around the internet looks a bit interesting. Altek Systems inc. is the name and they make switch panels, wireing harnesses, and battery cables. Their website is www.alteksystemsinc.com
-may be worth a look i guess...


-ben

[TXAVy]

I've been keeping this thread bookmarked for some time but admit that I haven't been keeping up very well. There sure are a LOT of post here. That said (admitting I haven't read it all yet), has anyone looked at the new in-dash unit coming out as an option on GM vehicles this coming year as a slide-in for the AV? I didn't write down all of the options on it, but I think it was touch screen, and could play a CD too. Not sure if it was voice activated or not though.

[sperry]

I presume you're just referring to the TNR.
`Lot's of posts on it.

For a UC6 "direct" replacement, use this P/N: 10377287.

If you are upgrading your amp to a Y91/Luxury type, or it's for Escalades/EXT or Yukon/XL-Denali's, use this P/N: 10377531.

(`03 and later - to date)

[duramaxHD]

Hi everyone--- Unfortunatly I have not kicked myself into upgrading to the TNR yet...however everyone has been so helpful that im sure it will be simple once i bite the bullet and part with my hard earned $... Now though, another option has popped into my head. Would it be possible to put a TNR and 6 disk changer (denali/escalade style) in my 2005 Silverado, BUT have it output via a PAC unit to an aftermarket amp/speakers??? I would like to do this because, while the sound quality and volume (i dont care about making the windows spontaniously explode) from the stock Bose speakers isnt superb, it is fine for me. What i WOULD like a little more of from my stock UQ7 Bose speakers, is bass. While the stock sub is surprising for a 6.5" driver, (then again, this could just be an illusion I get because im literally 3 feet away from it) i'd like something more powerful. I thought about just adding a sub amp that gets its inputs from the speaker level outputs of the Bose stock sub, but then again id have to deal with that set crossover, crappy quality. etc...  sorry to go on and on...but can it be done? Id love a factory TNR/6 disk....just with a bit more bass .

thanks--- ben

[duramaxHD]

By the way...does anyone know what the factory sub crossover freq. is??? My best guess is somewhere in the 100 hz range... How about the tweeter crossover?? (although for some reason i remember reading that there is none...good old gm...gotta love 'em)

-ben

[duramaxHD]

sorry about this...i have another question... when the (stock) head units output the line level signal to the amp, is it completely untouched?? For example, when I increase the bass or treble via the head unit controls on my UC6, does IT equalize the audio signal, or does it just tell my "dumb" amp to do it. Im not talking about the "full time active equalizing" that the amp does to make music sound "the best it can"...im just talking about simple bass and treble adjustments... So if i were to add an aftermarket amp and speakers to my "future" TNR, would I lose all control of bass and treble? Knowing that GM just loves to be as wacky as possible and make mods as difficult as they can be, the pessimistic side of me wants to think that somehow the head unit (of lux/Y91 trucks) sends a pure audio signal to the amp, then a separate class 2 signal that contains bass and treble settings (so the AMP can make the bass and treble adjustments, not the HU). Why can't GM make this simple??!!? From looking around, it seems they even have (at least) 4 different variations of Y91 amps!!! Of course just having 1 kind of "smart" amp and 1 kind of "dumb" amp would be way too simple...

And another question...does the escalade/denali 6 disk changer plug into the amp or the HU???

Heres my final question...ill try not to bother you guys anymore
---is there any meaning behind RPO codes...or are they just a random bunch of letters and numbers assigned to a particular option...the only one i can think of that makes any sense is "UC6" where the U seems to mean "head unit", the C means changer, and the 6 means 6 disk?

much appreciated, as always--- Ben

[sperry]

Ben,

Not to worry, you’re not being a pest..

In thought of your questions, I may not answer them in the order you asked them. I’m composing this in pieces, as I get the chance of writing a sentence, paragraph or two. Bear with me.

First is your concern of the audio handling process. The “Premium” system uses a method where the audio out of the head unit varies, as it is processed in that component. This is limited, ie: no midrange, etc. however this makes for easier retrofit of the dumb amplifier. The “Premium” amp apparently has considerable crossover distortion and the skew factor must be awful. Hence the bad reputation. If you replace the amp with an aftermarket unit, you would want to match up a set of speakers with that amp also. You retain the limitations of the audio process internal to the HU. Remember that the aftermarket amp requires an interface. At least the other features (such as St. Wh. Controls and RSA) are retained this way, without more adapters,

The “Luxury” Bose to Delphi connectivity, differs where the level from the HU is flat. The settings whether eq or volume, are processed within the class II amplifier. When you adjust volume or bass or other, you send DATA to the amp, and it’s processed there. As a result, it’s more difficult to just replace this amplifier. Aftermarket adapters require that you keep the Lux amp installed.
However, the “redeeming” factor is that the class II amplifier is quite clean, period. So, if you don’t need to shatter eardrums, bones and windows, this method will perform well for you. Delphi & Bose adopted this method likely to reduce noise pickup. Send it all at high level, then process it.. Great if you want to go in high level to an aftermarket amp for a sub, or whatever – providing the impedance’s match.

So, it sounds like you have this straight anyway.

Crossovers.. I would need an AC voltmeter and a tone generator to find the half-power point (-3dB) to determine that. The specs appear to be something they like to hide.. I never looked for them and can’t be objective on it. They like to combine the mid’s & tweeters in the front. The tweeters get a cap, that’s all. The sub is an internal LFE. Whether they provide a separate amp and active crossover, or just hang an inductor in series with the main channels, I don’t know (to date). I suspect the latter.

When you order TNR head units, you will need to determine the path you will take at that point. The Luxury amplifier needs rewiring (at the connectors)* and a noise-canceling mic. Even a console floorboard mount bracket. However, many just use two of the amp screws which is the difference. The “Premium” system is easier, no need to remove the console. However, you still have the “crap” amp. The retrofit of an aftermarket amp is easier.

Your CDX will work with either setup.

RPO’s, I’ll go with that, But as far as the UB0 & UB1, well I hadn’t considered the UB1 as a base radio, it doesn’t have the internal amp.. Maybe UM8 means some sort of “Multifunction”, however I would feel that someone would have a bunch of trouble trying to load up 8 disks in it.

Did I miss any part of the questions? `Bit of a rush today…


* JP Custom’s “Kit” has adapter’s for the amp connectors.

[duramaxHD]

I dare anyone to find a question about this stuff that Sperry cannot answer!!!
As always sperry, your help could not be more appreciated... I think I finally understand now... of course I could not find any info on the Bose system specs. (Bose likes to hide their specs...for home AND car audio ) And I see now how simply tieing the Bose high level sub output to the high level input of an aftermarket amp/sub would sound aweful. And I agree with you in the assumption that the amp does not have a separate LFE channel with a "real" crossover...that would be way too hard!!! With your advice, I think I am going to go this route:

TNR, 6 disk, Y91 amp (with the re-wired connector of course) and use the stock UQ7 speakers...THEN I would...
1) snip the stock sub's wires and put it to sleep
2)use a PAC C2A-GM24 to "intercept" the full range, unaltered audio signal from the TNR
3) send this "intercepted" full range signal to an aftermarket amp (that has a built in adjustable crossover) and sub...probably something simple like a single 8" driver...

That way, I'd be able to have the Y91 drive the stock speakers (with its cleaner sound, as i understand it), and leave LFE/bass duties to the aftermarket amp/sub (which of course would sound 'almost' perfect because it is not getting a crappy high leval signal that already has passed through and been 'touched' by something that says Bose on it ) It might take some messing around before I found the 'perfect' sub/mid crossover that makes the stock UQ7's sound good with the aftermarket large sub, but i think it would be worth it in the end...OEM nav, OEM CDX, clean Y91 sound, and lots of low end punch!! sounds like the best of all worlds! (I hope its not too good to be true...)
Any thoughts on how this idea would work???

thanks again everyone
---Ben

PS- the PAC C2A-GM24 does work with the TNR, right??
secondly...my understanding of the PAC C2A-GM24 is that it only "intercepts" the audio signal...it doesnt steal it completely; i.e. the stock UQ7 speakers will still work while the PAC C2A-GM24 simultaneously outputs a full range signal right? just checking my understanding of how it works...

[duramaxHD]

Almost forgot... from pictures i've seen, the Y91 amp is bigger and differently shaped than the Premium "dumb" Bose amp... Does it fit pretty well in the standard center console in Avalanche's and Silverado's?? Are the mounting points, screw holes, etc.. the same and what-not?

thanks--- Ben

[sperry]

Folks usually just mount the front screws, however, ....

Here's a pic from OKC_Joe.. Mounting plate mod.



Edit: Couldn't even remember his correct username!  

[sperry]

...And another he provided, so you can access the mount screws easier..

[BCS]

It is my understanding that Okie Joe is trying to make a profit off of helping people install these units, is that correct?

[sperry]

Not that I know of! Did his images leave you with that impression?

He is most helpful, courteous and generous!

But, there are those that understandably do profit from it, simply because they have to make a living!

[nota4re]

Dang if the 40 pages of this thread didn't keep me up reading/comprehending half the night!  What a great group of people here who have openly helped so many.  Keeping a long story short(er), I wanted and AV but the family pushed and won for me to buy an '05 Denali.  (I even was able to use the "in the Driveway" certificate I also got from some people on this board.... what a group!)

OK, so I just want to appeal to the experts to confirm:

I have:
'05 Denali
Bose/Onstar, "Y91" on the glovebox door
single disc XM enabled HU
6-disc, single fed CD changer below
RSA but no RSE (see, I'm learning the acronyms!)

I bought:
TNR 7531 from Ebay last night for $1100  (Ebay 7939825299)
GM Antenna 15135178 from GMPartsDirect

My assumption (please confirm):
I should be able to simply remove the HU and install the new TNR
Install the antenna
Have dealer program my VIN to radio

Questions:
Any chance I don't need the antenna.... possible that Onstar and GPS are combined?
Any chance that I won't need to be programmed... or was that just from swapping same config amps?

Thanks for the input.  Great thread.  Very helpful

[sperry]

The HU should plug & play with the theftlock clear. The separate GPS antenna IS needed in this case. The time you would spend with the OnStar mod, etc. This is easier.

Y91 is no absolute guarantee you have the amp. It's extremely likely you do but we ran into one that didn't! AND IT SAID Y91!!

Do you have "Spacious" setting in your audio profiles & noise-cancelling on/off in the menus? A RPO "UB1" HU (The latter is just another likelyhood, but the first two are more of a certainty) and another apparent feature, a "midrange" adjustment.

Remember, you will need to connect a wire from your HU, over to the cluster for the VSS signal. It's not really hard and it will operate a bit jerky without it.

It MAY already be there in an 05 but they harness it in. Check for DTC (codes) that set after the theftlock is cleared. The HU will send one if there's no VSS connection however it may not be immediate. So, arrange it with the tech to have him drive it around for 3 miles/4 Km or more, then check for a DTC.

Here's the DOC:

RE: DTC B0001         P/O #798709  

Circuit Description

The navigation radio receives the vehicle speed signal from the PCM through a dedicated circuit shared with the instrument cluster.
Conditions for Running the DTC

* The navigation radio must detect a power mode transition to ON.
* The radio does not set this DTC if B1327 or B1328 is current.
* The vehicle must drive for 4 km (2.5 mi) after receiving a GPS signal. The receipt of the GPS signal is indicated by an icon box in the upper left quadrant of the map screen with the letters GPS inside of it.

Conditions for Setting the DTC

The navigation radio compares the vehicle speed signal from the PCM to the GPS location signal every second. If the GPS signal indicates that the vehicle has traveled 4 km (2.5 mi) but no vehicle speed signal was received, the radio sets the DTC.

Action Taken When the DTC Sets

The navigation radio uses the GPS signal when the vehicle speed signal from the PCM is unavailable.

The following symptoms may happen if the vehicle speed signal from the PCM is unavailable:

* The vehicle icon may jump to different positions on the map screen.
* The vehicle icon, current position marker may not move on the map screen while the vehicle is being driven.
* The route guidance accuracy may be degraded.

Conditions for Clearing the DTC

* A current DTC clears when the navigation radio detects the vehicle speed signal from the PCM for more than one second.
* A history DTC clears after 50 ignition cycles without a vehicle speed signal failure.

Diagnostic Aids

An intermittent condition may be caused by the following:

* Mis-routed harness
* Rubbed through wire insulation
* Broken wire inside the insulation
* A loose connector pin

-------------

So, in this case, you will know if the wire is there or not (electrically). (Yes, you can Ohm it out too).

So, if they do set and you connect the wire later, your DTC's clear with usually 50 Key on-off cycles if they didn't set again. (Some items are 100 cycles).

You should find the graphic for your GPS antenna placement under your dash, somewhere in this topic. (Sorry, you'll have to look, I'm slightly rushed right now... )

HTH!

[BCS]

Not that I know of! Did his images leave you with that impression?

He is most helpful, courteous and generous!

But, there are those that understandably do profit from it, simply because they have to make a living!

He isnt making a living, he is taking advantage of people who havent found this forum where people like you are helping people for free.

[sperry]

You must be referring to another `Joe.

He would be here in a heartbeat but likely has a bit more family obligation than I.

So he offer's what he can, and professionally. I posted these images he sent me. And I value his help as he does mine.
That doesn't sound like taking advantage. At least to me, at all.

[nota4re]

Sperry,

Thanks for the advice.  I'd prefer to test for the VSS signal rather than wait for a trouble code.  I'll look back through the threads here and find the pin where it is supposed to be.

For the record, I just completed the install of a '04 5.7L Hemi into my Jeep Rubicon--- so I've learned my way through wiring diagrams and VSS pickups!

I'll report back on my success/failures so that this thread is THE source for Nav's in GM trucks.

[sperry]

If you can't locate the connection, I'll pull it up for you - just have to sift through the rubble...

If I remember it's on A4 of the cluster and "E" of C2 at the HU. So many connectors!  

WoW I bet that Jeep's a fun ride with that mod!

[BCS]

the same joe that sells the dvd navigation disks on ebay? Yeah thats him

[ygmn]

Code:

This is the end of PART 1 of this topic.

Please see PART 2 for a continuation of this discussion

2nd Cad Nav in the Av - In & Working! PART 2