Fog lights with head lights

Driving with "brights" lights on in front of or behind other vehicles is illegal in most all states; not to mention that it's rude, crude, and socially unacceptable. BLINDING other drivers is not cool, they may just may hit YOU and your bright lights. Publishing articles on how to wire your truck to operate the fog lights in conjunction with your regular driving/or "bright lights" is probably illegal but certainly uncool. If you NEED THAT much light you're driving too fast. IMHO.

Sorry if this comes off in a scolding way, that wasn't what I intended. I live in the USA, in Washington State. We got deer, Elk, bear, all kinds of critters and they cross the road when THEY want to. Coupled with people following too close these days I get nervous, especially on my Motor cycle. One nigh I exited the freeway there was a vehicle under the overpass (of the freeway) on the on-coming side of the road (on my extream left) the shoulder. I looked left, right and left again and saw the guys head lights, they were so bright they blocked or blinded my vision so I missed the car behind the glare, I almost got hit, I pulled up to the parked vehicle and the guy rolls his window down and I mentioned that his lights were pretty bright, maybe too bright as I just about got killed by the vehicle his lights blinded me to. His response?: "Well, they're on low beam" Well they weren't the standard lights, they were those lights with the blue cast to them, they were so bright it hurt my eyes. I'm thankful they were on "low beam"

What is the point of this thread?

Do you live in an area where more light is better?

I live in Deer country where deer are easily over 200 lbs and bright lighting can be the difference between hitting a deer and doing serious damage and possibly hurting me or seeing the deer and avoiding it.

I currently have my Brights, Lows and fogs all come on with the brights... They all light up different portions of the road. When the brights are not active my low beams are used on their own or can be run with fogs...

Make a HUGE difference when driving home on the dark expressway where it is common to see deer.

Do I ever drive with brights on when other drivers are around? Nope! It is illegal to drive with just brights on around other drivers.

Rodney

Someone needs a lesson in common sense, of course you should not be driving around with the high beams in traffic period. That's a no brained for anyone with a driver license.

I read most threads on this website and have for the past 12 years almost on a daily basis. I don't remember many members mentioning how they like to blind other drivers with their wall of light. I know it may be assuming alot now with today's rude/selfish road rage filled people but I hope this added light is used in a courteous and legal manner. As far as the legality of installing the mod and extra lights, that can vary from state to state or even country since this site has international members. I leave the enforcement issue up to their local LEOs and state inspection stations. I can see a need for the added light in off-road situations.
I see nothing wrong with advising members to check with their local inspection stations or LEOs before modifying their AV since laws can be numerous and they may want to consider the legality of such a mod before doing. Also if they cause an accident especially with injury or death they will probably get sued regardless of the equipment laws. At some point people have to accept responsibility for their actions. Yet I also know that doesn't help the injured party or their surviving family members.
There have been many threads over the years where members have modified their AVs for some styling or comfort without thinking of the safety issues.....unfortunately that is the nature of the "information superhighway" that is the internet...........The only thing a concerned member can do is advise the poster of the potential safety or legal issues and let it go. I also find it's better to do it in a friendly calm manner and not in a scolding tone since people don't take kindly to being scolded.

Ditto to the previous three posters.  I have the mod in my truck to run all lights on high.  The instant I see oncoming headlights I turn off the brights so as not to blind oncoming vehicles.  I don't use the brights if I'm following somebody.  I use the same, courteous habits no matter what vehicle I'm driving as simply using unmodified factory bright lights while following a vehicle or with approaching vehicles is illegal in most states and generally

dna9656 said:

rude, crude, and socially unacceptable

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regardless as to whether the vehicle has been modified or not.  Furthermore, this mod comes in very handy when I'm trying to pitch a tent when it's pitch black.

To the O.P..
While I agree with your opinion on not intentionally blinding other drivers, I must point out that much of what many of us discuss here  is illegal in some way or another in some jurisdictions.
Amber drls, tinted front windows, wheels outside of the fender, tinted tail lights, exhaust modifications, suspension modifications, fog light conversion, a sound system capable of exceeding 138db, factory mud flap removal, masked headlights, altered front brakes, altered rear brakes, altered gauge cluster, and probably other items that are not right on top of my head, are a list of items that I was assisted with or inspired to do via this forum, all of which are illegal where I live, and if done poorly or carelessly could endanger myself or others. In addition, there is a countless list of other mods that members have completed that are illegal in one way or another in any given state/municipality.
Not trying to cause controversy, but without illegal modifications, we really wouldn't have a whole lot to talk about here.

Calicak89 said:

To the O.P..
While I agree with your opinion on not intentionally blinding other drivers, I must point out that much of what many of us discuss here  is illegal in some way or another in some jurisdictions.
Amber drls, tinted front windows, wheels outside of the fender, tinted tail lights, exhaust modifications, suspension modifications, fog light conversion, a sound system capable of exceeding 138db, factory mud flap removal, masked headlights, altered front brakes, altered rear brakes, altered gauge cluster, and probably other items that are not right on top of my head, are a list of items that I was assisted with or inspired to do via this forum, all of which are illegal where I live, and if done poorly or carelessly could endanger myself or others. In addition, there is a countless list of other mods that members have completed that are illegal in one way or another in any given state/municipality.
Not trying to cause controversy, but without illegal modifications, we really wouldn't have a whole lot to talk about here.

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Being new the the forum I am having a hard time navigating the site; there are terms I do not understand, and I can't even find my profile without finding a post of my own first. Anyway to answer all the more than kind responses to my post: First I apologize if it came off in the negative; that was not my intension.  Next, I live in the Puget Sound area of Western Washington State, for those not familiar with the geography that's in the North West corner of the US. It's heavily wooded, we have trillions of tress and that is no exaggeration; we have Mt. Rainier, 14,000 feet high, you can see it 60 miles away on a good day. We have 2 major mountain ranges, the Cascades and the Olympics. We got deer; man do we got deer, they are all over. We also have freeways, some are fenced off to keep animals and people off the roadway as the traffic is speeding along at 50 mph to who know how fast. The legal limit is usually 60 MPH. under ideal conditions. That's the law (pretty much) in most states. We are all taught not to "out drive" our lights, that means driving at such a speed that you can dodge, brake or slow to miss whatever object comes up in your "light envelope" so there are extra lights installed at the factory we call  "brights" for those times you are alone on the road and there is justification for more (to extend the envelope) lights. They are limited to how bright they can be. The law was written when we had old fashioned incandescent lights. HID, super duper, carbon arc, LEDS, HID these aren't generally rated in watts but in lumens, another unit of measure in the lighting world. So far as I know the law still measures light the old fashioned way. In my area a lot of trucks are on the road running 4 and 6 lights on the public highways and roads. My state's law limits cars and light trucks to 4 head lights, motorcycles to 3. I have seen motorcycles with 6 headlights; all on at night. More often than not pick ups (especially the raised ones) run the brights and fogs together routinely. Flashing your lights at them to remind them that the brights are on only gets you even MORE lights (on the roof) in front of you. Those that are behind me with the brights on I slow down so they can pass me, often I get the finger for getting out of their way. When I'm on a 2 lane road I pull over if I'm on my motorcycle. I'm not in as much a hurry as they are I suppose. Speaking of motorcycles, I ride a 2 lane rural road to work, never hunted deer roam the HEAVY woods on either side of the unfenced road. I go no more than the posted limit for fear of the deer running into the road, I can't see the deer because the vehicle behind me has 4 headlights in my non dimming motorcycle mirrors, and is 30 feet behind me and couldn't stop in time should a deer run out in front of me, so not only is the deer dead, so am I from being run over by the guy behind me. There is no trunk to cushion the contact, you just get run over.
So this is why I made the post; to ask all of us in the truck community to remember to slow down if you can't see far enough ahead of you. I don't think we need so much light that we can count the pebbles in the concrete as we drive down the road. Those slightly blue lights "burn" dots in the eyes of those that look at them; to many they are an "attractive nuisance" meaning due to their color/brightness they draw the human eye to them, much like we look at the police lights on the side of the road, they distract us and many time we unconsciously start to steer towards them. IMHO if you need all that light to drive safely maybe you should think about slowing down or at least aiming the lights lower. ALL head lights (even when replacing with the same brand/model) should have the aim checked, the placement of the light emitting component isn't always the same as the last set. You can find the proper aiming technique in the service manuals of your truck. I know some municipalities require professional aiming...OK thanks for reading!

We all get the fact that bright lights like HIDs can be annoying. Just some folks are inconsiderate or just plain stupid. What bothers me most are police cars that make a stop and leave their strobes lights on they blind me to the point I have to block the light with my hand cause I can't see jack.

dna9656 said:

.... find my profile without finding a post of my own first.......

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see picture:

this should be at top of every page and just below your picture.


PS PAragraphs are nice and make it easier for everyone to read.

Thanks and welcome to the site

Not sure what your seeing. I lived in Issaquah, Redmond, Normandy Park & Renton for over 20 years. And Liberty Lake for the last 10. I hardly ever see people driving with their brights on & not dimming them for oncoming traffic. The HIDs are a problem occasionally. I've never seen lights on the roof being used (and I have an 18" LED bar up front to answer with). More often the issue I've seen is lights that are not aimed correctly, or cars/trucks that are towing or carrying a heavy load so the headlights are aimed up high. I have Nighthawk headlights & the All4on mod done. No one has ever complained to me about them being too bright in 7 or 8 yrs owning the Av.

AirJunky said:

Not sure what your seeing. I lived in Issaquah, Redmond, Normandy Park & Renton for over 20 years. And Liberty Lake for the last 10. I hardly ever see people driving with their brights on & not dimming them for oncoming traffic. The HIDs are a problem occasionally. I've never seen lights on the roof being used (and I have an 18" LED bar up front to answer with). More often the issue I've seen is lights that are not aimed correctly, or cars/trucks that are towing or carrying a heavy load so the headlights are aimed up high. I have Nighthawk headlights & the All4on mod done. No one has ever complained to me about them being too bright in 7 or 8 yrs owning the Av.

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Come drive down SR 3 North headed to Poulsbo at 5:00 AM during the work week. You'll see plenty. You didn't see LED, HID and super white lights 8 years ago because they weren't around much. People didn't run 4 to 6 lights at one time either.

The point was I've driven all over the state & never seen any more than an isolated incident here and there. Its hard to believe that one road in a small town is worse than everyone else. Go down to LA or someplace where people actually have a lot money to blow on nice cars.

When we have the All4on mod done, we have 2 headlights, 2 DRLs & 2 driving lights on. I've never had anyone complain. Yea, its a lot of light, but none of them are illegal.

Technically most areas allow DOT approved headlights and require turn signals and brake lighting that are also DOT approved.

HID lighting is illegal when not OEM period. Officers in my area do pull people over and ticket them for running HID's especially if they are other than white or yellow. If you are smart with them however and use Projectors to protect other drivers I have not heard of anyone getting a ticket. White or Amber Halos won't get you a ticket but pretty much any other color will.

Brights are legal to be used but must be turned off when around other drivers.  Michigan says 500' behind or 500' from oncoming.
Fog lights are illegal to be used unless conditions allow for them. In my area few are ticketed for fog lighting due to the abundance of deer.

As far as light bars and such. I have been told they are considered the same as a fog light if below the hood line.
Anything above the hood line and they are considered off road only lighting and you can be ticketed for use at ANY time on road ways. Offroad lighting is supposed to be covered or removed when on the road but I don't know of anyone that has been ticketed for it.

Note that other states can be different and should ask but I would guess MOST states LEGALLY enforce them in a similar way. Also if you have an issue with bright lighting when your driving at night from other drivers you CAN call and complain to your local departments and/or local officials. They WILL start enforcing illegal lighting that is in usage when they get complaints about it blinding other drivers.

Rodney

When I was a boy fog lights were rare in Akron, Ohio. Not because we didn't get fog, we

did! Lake Erie was (and is) a major player in the weather in N.E. Ohio'

Fog lights were yellow and always on the bumper or under the bumper, you never saw

them on under conditions other than fog, they were yellow because (I think) the eye

doesn't see yellow (filters the blue light?) as intensely as it does white. They were

mounted low so the light wouldn't reflect back into the driver's eyes, the light was

projected UNDER the driver's line of sight so it reflected away from the windshield.

I have no idea why fog lights are no longer yellow; so far as I know we all still have the

Mk. 1 eye ball; wearing yellow glasses helps me deal with the HID/LED/Super white lights

immensely.

Most of my male co-workers drive late pick ups; they tell me the newer trucks with the

low mounted (under/in the air dam) lights come wired to run all the time; I think that's

bull because of the aforementioned laws in most states and the "no actions that can be

construed to be rude, crude, and socially unacceptable" clause in the human social

contract; but then as many may have noticed fewer people care about their fellow humans

anymore.

Thanks for reading...

redheadedrod said:

HID lighting is illegal when not OEM period.

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I have done extensive research into the legality of aftermarket/modified lighting, especially in Pennsylvania, and the above is false:
Based upon DOT case Docket No. 01-8885 and subsequently issued study and publication # DOT809672 issued by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
The short end of the case file, ruling and report (I've read the entire 192 page transcript and 60 page publication) state that unless disability glare (different than discomfort glare) is increased at the 60m range (the distance of beam focus a lower beam light is calibrated at) by greater than 1.2X (120%) of the OEM installed headlamp housing/bulb combination that it is legal to run any bulb/housing of choosing.
The issue at hand is that an HID and even some halogens w/ greater output exceed this value.
If an HID is placed in a retrofitted housing (projector or not), or aftermarket housing that reduced or focused the output to not increase disability glare more than 20% over the OEM gear @ a distance of 60m,  it is in fact legal. Thousands have fought unwarranted citations and won based upon this case and document as well as the Lingard Vs. Virgina ruling of 2004.

dna9656 said:

Fog lights were yellow and always on the bumper or under the bumper, you never saw
them on under conditions other than fog, they were yellow because (I think) the eye
doesn't see yellow (filters the blue light?) as intensely as it does white.

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Many years ago this was thought to be true. A study done by Stiles and Crawford in 1962 negated this thought. However, it was not widely accepted until confirmed by modern science in studies done by Dr. C. Flannagan (MIT) in 1999 and the University of Southern California Berkeley under Dr. Bullough in 2002  confirming that scattered light entering the human eye regardless of filtering (red, orange/amber,yellow, blue, violet) at the same lumen provides the same glare illuminance regardless of filter applied. The visual acuity of the object under light is observed differently based upon the filter (the reason you see "better" with filtered glasses), but regardless of the filter, if the light on the other side was bright enough to disable your ability to see clearly, the type of filter or lack thereof would not matter, you would still be blinded.
You are probably thinking the same thing I did when I first read the study, that this is BS, but the science proves it. If a lens is simply a filter, not a lumage reducer, you will be blinded when the light on the other side reaches the same lumen, regardless of the filter applied.
I'm not certain, but I would guess that the elimination of the yellow fog lights was simply a costing issue. it's likely that it's cheaper to produce a clear lens, than a yellow one.

I imagine that over time many people have confused fog lights and driving lights. Originally fog lights were yellow and only were used with headlights on low beam so light wasn't reflected back on driver. They felt if you could use high beams then it wasn't very foggy. I think they have found over the years that white fog lights properly mounted are not as "reflective" as once thought. But it depends on mounting location and light output.
Driving lights were for high speed highway or lightly traveled back roads where increased lighting was needed since early headlights didn't have great illumination and even with older cars you could easily out drive the illumination. Many state laws would not allow both headlights,fogs and driving lamps on at the same time so drivers had to choose what to install or use. Also the older electrical systems couldn't take the drain of so many lights on anyway.
I bet the majority of those aftermarket lights you mention do have some fine print about "check with local laws" before connecting lights to harness so you are legal and it gets ignored since many drivers want it on all the time for their increased visibility for themselves.
I agree with you about many people being self absorbed and not being courteous anymore.

redheadedrod said:

Brights are legal to be used but must be turned off when around other drivers.  Michigan says 500' behind or 500' from oncoming.

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For reference Indiana law is that brights are not to be used with oncoming traffic within 500' or within 200' following behind.

I say to hell with the laws and use you damned common sense LOL.  Well of course I was kidding about the laws but certainly not about the common sense.  There are tons of ignorant drivers here in Winnipeg and surrounding areas that drive with their brights on and and don't even have the brains to dim them for on coming traffic even when they are flashed the brights.  A person can see taillights in the dark miles ahead and if I even see the faintest bit of taillight I will not use my brights.  It all comes down to ignorance is getting greater than common sense.  I have passed vehicles on the highway and only got at most a 1/4 of a mile ahead if that and they will put their brights on.  <-- is what I want to do to them. 

dna9656 said:

Come drive down SR 3 North headed to Poulsbo at 5:00 AM during the work week. You'll see plenty. You didn't see LED, HID and super white lights 8 years ago because they weren't around much. People didn't run 4 to 6 lights at one time either.

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The very road i take to the Sub base.