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Author Topic: Lifters & Rocker Arms  (Read 689 times)

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dna9656

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Lifters & Rocker Arms
« on: April 2, 2019, 17:35:22 PM »

What is a good brand of lifter? AC delco has OEM for less than $20.00 each and another P/N that's as much as $35.00 each? What's the difference between the 2? I have seen lifters for as little as less than $5.00 each (ewww! That's too cheap!) and up to $35.00 each. I want some roller rocker arms too; I need an exp. recommendation please. VIN 3GNEK12ZX6G101883. Flex Fuel Engine.
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2006 Chevy Avalanche,Z71, Upgraded to 4L65 E 2007 Standard 17" Chevy wheels but not the right year or style, new tires, exhaust, U joints, shocks, rear axle bearings and seals. New Driver's seat belt.  2007 Chrysler Sebring, 7  Yamaha motorcycles 6 Venture Royales 1 Road Star, 2 run, others for parts. 2 dachshunds, 1 house. 1 wife.

enoniam

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #1 on: April 3, 2019, 06:35:28 AM »

The OEM lifters are pretty good.  The more expensive ones are probably the "Cadillac" lifters which are good at higher RPM.  But why are you looking at replacing the lifters?  You've got to pull the heads on these LS engines to replace the lifters - it's not as easy as on earlier small block chevy's.

As far as rockers, I'm running Comp's roller-tipped 1.8 ratio rockers in my 2000 Corvette.  I'm pleased with them.
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2003 with ATK 460 HP 6.0, Speed Engineering Long Tube Headers and true dual 3" exhaust, Truetrac rear, 3200 Circle D Stall, tranny upgraded with 4L65 and other heavy-duty parts, Weld Racing 18x10 forged wheels, HPTuners custom tune, Vortech supercharger, water/meth injection, Magnavolt fuel pump voltage booster, DeatschWerks booster fuel pump, 58#/hr injectors, 13.3 @ 101 in the quarter mile.

dna9656

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #2 on: April 7, 2019, 09:00:53 AM »

Well I got rid of the valve lifter clack-clack noise yesterday. I put a quart of Marvel Mystery oil in the crank case (it was a Qt. low to start with) and ran the already warm engine for 15 minutes at 1200 RPM. I got changes in the sound, it became less loud but didn't go away. I put some transmission fluid in a squirt bottle and squirted about 3 oz. into the pipe that goes from the rear of the driver's side valve cover over to the middle of the intake area. I was told this was a PVC pipe, I was also told this engine uses an internal PVC valve and that my heavy smoking on a cold start or after it sets f10 minutes to an hour. It's not coolant, it has the heavy oily smell (coolant smoke/steam smells nothing like oil smoke) it's most defiantly oil. My oil consumption is way up. I figured it was the valve seals, I used BG's Engine performance enhancer (an oil flush product) to get rid of the lifter noise, that didn't work but VERY soon after that the oil smoke on startup began; I thought the BG flush stuff wrecked the valve seals. I didn't leave the oil flush in the engine, I followed the instructions to the letter and finished up with changing the oil. This morning I read that the PVC system can cause oil to be drawn into the intake manifold; and that there is a TSB out on this issue. I got an estimate to replace the engine from a very reputable shop here and they included a new valve cover is necessary; apparently the cover's built-in PVC plugs up. So before i go through all the crap of changing valve seals I'm going to brake lean all the crap out of the driver's side valve cover.
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2006 Chevy Avalanche,Z71, Upgraded to 4L65 E 2007 Standard 17" Chevy wheels but not the right year or style, new tires, exhaust, U joints, shocks, rear axle bearings and seals. New Driver's seat belt.  2007 Chrysler Sebring, 7  Yamaha motorcycles 6 Venture Royales 1 Road Star, 2 run, others for parts. 2 dachshunds, 1 house. 1 wife.

dna9656

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #3 on: April 7, 2019, 11:33:16 AM »

I decided to buy one because I don't want to take it off again for this silly, stupid reason. You would think GM would have an idea of how to build an engine after who knows how many millions they have built in the past. It's beyond my thinking why they would integrate the PCV system into the valve covers and  intake manifold. There's STILL a hose involved. I can't find out for sure if the engine uses a PVC valve at all, some parts houses sell them and others don't. Thanks for your answer; I posted a few times before and got very little or no response. I really appreciate the input!
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 19:31:27 PM by dna9656 »
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dna9656

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #4 on: April 8, 2019, 05:42:24 AM »

To recap I added Marvel Mystery oil (MMO), ran it for 15-20 minutes and the noise changed but did not stop. I squirted trans fluid into the PVC hose while the engine continued to run. The noise soon stopped. Now, was it the trans fluid in the PVC or did the MMO finally do it's job? I changed the plugs, plug wires valve cover, oil and filter. While I was doing this I also ram-rodded the the push rods with some 14" (or so) pipe cleaner through the oil hole in the rocker arms. I felt the pipe cleaner bottom out, while at the same time I squirted Berrymans B-12 down the same hole and down along the push rod trying to get some solvent down to the lifters. The old plugs were wet with oil, not unexpected but also explains progressively harder starting. The gap on 2 or 3  was wide as well. After a test ride the lifter noise came back, I do not understand that. I thought the MMO or trans fluid cleaned the crap/varnish out of the too small oil holes in the lifters/push rods. Well I squirted more trans fluid in the PVC pipe after the short ride and the noise did not stop so apparently it's the MMO, I just didn't wait long enough? So tonight I will add 10% MMO after draining 10% of the oil and see what happens. You can add up to 20% of MMO to your total oil capacity and run it.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 19:29:51 PM by dna9656 »
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2006 Chevy Avalanche,Z71, Upgraded to 4L65 E 2007 Standard 17" Chevy wheels but not the right year or style, new tires, exhaust, U joints, shocks, rear axle bearings and seals. New Driver's seat belt.  2007 Chrysler Sebring, 7  Yamaha motorcycles 6 Venture Royales 1 Road Star, 2 run, others for parts. 2 dachshunds, 1 house. 1 wife.

dna9656

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2019, 19:37:23 PM »

So the MMO didn't do the trick for me, I got some Lucas White bottle "oil stabilizer" a viscosity improver and cleaner, no luck, I got the same racket from the lifter. I priced lifter replacement kits, comes with new lifters, intake and head bolts and gaskets, push rods, Maybe rocker arms too,with exhaust manifold gaskets. Can anyone in the club help me with a KIT part number for all that is needed/. Also I have read that the club recommends that the knock sensors and the knock sensor wire harness be replaced with AC Delco P/N'ed knock sensors and wire harness, does anyone have these P/Ns?
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2006 Chevy Avalanche,Z71, Upgraded to 4L65 E 2007 Standard 17" Chevy wheels but not the right year or style, new tires, exhaust, U joints, shocks, rear axle bearings and seals. New Driver's seat belt.  2007 Chrysler Sebring, 7  Yamaha motorcycles 6 Venture Royales 1 Road Star, 2 run, others for parts. 2 dachshunds, 1 house. 1 wife.

dna9656

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2019, 16:49:52 PM »

 I have decided to replace the lifters rocker arms and the cam be it worn out or not because of the mileage (170,000K plus) on my 2006 1500 Z71. I conducted a  compression test it came to an average of 200 PSI over all so I am very confident in my rings and pistons. What I would like to have is a list of parts I should replace "while I'm in there". I know I need the following:
Cam, cam bearings, lifters, head gaskets, head bolts, intake and exhaust gaskets, knock send=sors and new AC Delco wire harness for those knock sensors. Anything else? Thinking about replacing the fuel injectors,,, comments?
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2006 Chevy Avalanche,Z71, Upgraded to 4L65 E 2007 Standard 17" Chevy wheels but not the right year or style, new tires, exhaust, U joints, shocks, rear axle bearings and seals. New Driver's seat belt.  2007 Chrysler Sebring, 7  Yamaha motorcycles 6 Venture Royales 1 Road Star, 2 run, others for parts. 2 dachshunds, 1 house. 1 wife.

redheadedrod

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2019, 20:05:50 PM »

So why are you going through all of this? because you are getting a little rocker noise?

Seriously... Why are you messing with this stuff? Just run it until it does something that means its broke...

My truck has had lifter noise for the whole time I have owned it... I put rebuild heads on it and the little puffs of smoke went away but I still get slight lifter noise. I think you are going on a wild goose chase to fix an issue that is just a minor annoyance but nothing actually wrong with your engine. Not to mention you will likely go through all of this and still have the lifter noise. Most of these trucks have some lifter noise at start up. MANY of these engines have lifter noise right from the factory brand new. (Boss bought one, brought it back because it was making the same noise you complain of and they told him it was normal. He returned the truck and bought from a different manufacturer... )



I replaced my heads because they both were cracked and had coolant in them. The engine now has almost 300k miles on it. I will be doing an oil pan gasket, fuel pump pickup and oring replacement and will probably put another 60k miles on it before retiring the engine for a bigger badder motor. These motors are pretty solid and I wouldn't touch anything until you actually have something wrong with it. I certainly wouldn't have touched the heads to stop a little valve guide smoking...

Rodney
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 20:08:34 PM by redheadedrod »
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enoniam

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2019, 19:31:13 PM »

I have decided to replace the lifters rocker arms and the cam be it worn out or not because of the mileage (170,000K plus) on my 2006 1500 Z71. I conducted a  compression test it came to an average of 200 PSI over all so I am very confident in my rings and pistons. What I would like to have is a list of parts I should replace "while I'm in there". I know I need the following:
Cam, cam bearings, lifters, head gaskets, head bolts, intake and exhaust gaskets, knock send=sors and new AC Delco wire harness for those knock sensors. Anything else? Thinking about replacing the fuel injectors,,, comments?

Unless you are pulling the engine I wouldn't do the cam bearings because while you can change them with the engine in the truck it isn't that easy.  Assuming that you aren't pulling the motor I'd also change the valve seals.  If you are pulling the motor you may as well do a full rebuild.
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dna9656

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2019, 20:04:09 PM »

My engine sounds like a kids bicycle with playing cards flapping on the spokes as he rides by. The racket is tremendous at 55 MPH. I have had the discussion with many about rebuilding, with 200 psi as my lowest compression test I have a tight motor, the oil pressure is over 40 at idle. I see no reason to rebuild. My only concern really are the cam bearings; I've never replaced a cam but I see little point in leaving the original cam in place as everything I have ever read about GM cams is they go bad around 170K miles. I haven't read anything to the contrary here. I am going to replace all the rockers before I take the engine apart just to be sure it isn't them.
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2006 Chevy Avalanche,Z71, Upgraded to 4L65 E 2007 Standard 17" Chevy wheels but not the right year or style, new tires, exhaust, U joints, shocks, rear axle bearings and seals. New Driver's seat belt.  2007 Chrysler Sebring, 7  Yamaha motorcycles 6 Venture Royales 1 Road Star, 2 run, others for parts. 2 dachshunds, 1 house. 1 wife.

redheadedrod

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2019, 09:03:46 AM »

My Truck has 277k miles on the original engine. The only thing that was swapped was the heads. No bearings or anything else was touched and my truck is fine. There is some minor ticking but that's it. I wouldn't touch the engine myself until it fails beyond repair and THEN replace the motor. Many of these motors will run for far longer. You are better served by looking for a new motor to replace yours with when it fails than to try such major repairs on yours. For the cost of doing all of that you can easily replace with a high performance engine.  When I was sourcing a possible new motor for my truck ATK High performance engines have a 5.3 for ~$3000 and a 6.0 for ~$4000 . Those engines are far better than factory. The 6.0 is nearly double the power of the stock 5.3.

I do plan to replace my motor in the future but to go with a much higher performance engine. I wouldn't waste money trying to repair yours when you can get a long block for a decent price... Do what you want but you are much better off saving up for a higher performance engine and going that route than to replace questionable components in yours.

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redheadedrod

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2019, 15:21:18 PM »

Also, there is a very common issue with these trucks which you will find MUCH easier to fix than what your trying to do. At least attempt it and if it fixes your problem it is real cheap and is a normal wear item... It is the same thing that is wrong with mine that I will repair when I pull the oil pan at some point this year.

The oil pickup tube has an o-ring on it. When the o-ring goes bad you will get the symptom of top end noise that you are describing. If it were actual cam bearings going bad I don't think you would get very far with them and I don't know that you will show low oil pressure either.

The fix is to drop the oil pan and replace the oil pickup tube and o-ring. Reinstall pan with new gasket and you should be good to go. I suspect that you do this and you may just find your issues go away. My truck has a tapping in it when the RPM's are low which is what it does when the oil pump is not pumping properly due to a bad Oring and/or oil pickup tube. Easiest to just replace it. Ad your pan gasket probably leaks by now anyhow.

Rodney
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enoniam

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2019, 06:43:04 AM »

He's got fine oil pressure at idle.  Definitely not an oil pump o-ring issue.
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redheadedrod

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2019, 07:20:51 AM »

At 170k miles on a 14 year old truck if the oil pickup tube hasn't been messed with I still would suggest doing it before doing anything else... Its cheap, relatively easy to do and takes one thing out of the equation.

Otherwise, personally if it were me and the oil tube repair doesn't do the trick... basically rebuilding the top end is way more work than I would do... I would go the ATK Performance engine route and hope the engine lasts long enough to grab the engine I would want...

Rodney
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dna9656

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2019, 07:44:16 AM »

OK YOU ALL CONVINCED ME! I will replace not only the oil pump pick up tube seal but the oil pump, the pickup tube seal and (of course the oil pan gasket as well) but does anyone have a COMPLETE parts list for this job? I'm ordering a high volume oil pump (Melling) P/N M295HV, using a Fel-Pro O ring, and Fel-Pro pan gasket. Should I replace the pick up tube while I'm in there? I can find no pick up tube description that says it comes with a O ring (these things USED to be included with the part for example a water pump came with the gasket(s) now some water pumps do not) so what I'd like to avoid learning I need an additional part when the oil pan is off laying on the floor and I have to go to the local parts house and get another part.... Will I need some special bolt, washer, diverter, etc....
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 11:02:24 AM by dna9656 »
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EXT4ME

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2019, 09:23:19 AM »

I just had my oil pump replaced with the Melling M295HV-324S kit that includes the oil pump and the oil pick up tube and o-ring assembly.

I definitely recommend getting the kit with the tube and o-ring to make sure you have a matched set with the correct o-ring.

That is very important and worth any cost difference between the kit and a oil pump without the tube.

I could not be happier.

For the first time in years, I finally have full oil pressure across all RPM ranges.

Clearly, the best money I have ever spent on this engine other than the rear main seal repair.

While my engine was not making any noises before the repair, it now runs smoother at idle and all RPM ranges, is quieter and I swear it has better power across all RPM's.

And I was just looking to improve my oil pressure beyond what I had gotten with changing the oil pickup tube and oil-ring assembly a while back.

I am now getting a solid 40-42 PSI at hot oil idle and 55-60 at off-idle cruise.

WOT will send the needle to the top of the scale during hot oil situations.

Cold oil idle pressure is 50+ PSI.

These are the numbers I remember getting many years ago.

Not too bad for an engine with 230K+ miles on it.

I wish I had followed my gut and replaced the oil pump many years ago.

 :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 09:47:58 AM by EXT4ME »
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enoniam

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2019, 10:00:02 AM »

I will disagree that especially on 4x4 trucks changing the oil pump o-ring is an easy job.  I didn't find it easy at all.

That said, if you are going to do it, may as well change the timing set as well.
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redheadedrod

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2019, 10:02:38 AM »

Well on the 4x4 trucks you do need to drop the front diff a couple inches, the more the better....

Still a heck of a lot easier than changing out the cam bearings...

Pulling the timing chain and gears adds another complexity to the job... And if you are going to do that then you might as well do the cam bearings.. then you might as well put on new heads... then you might as well....

Not sure where you stop with all that... Personally I will likely just change the pickup tube and oring on mine and run it another 50k miles or 3 years... Then go with the ATK Motor...

Rodney
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 10:05:48 AM by redheadedrod »
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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2019, 10:26:03 AM »

When I had just the oil pick up tube and included new o-ring assembly replaced several months ago, it was a 2 or 3 hour job with the truck on a lift.

The front diff was dropped, moved forward and secured without having to completely remove it.

If anyone ever has to remove the oil pan for any reason, I would suggest they consider also installing at least a new o-ring.

And don't forget to place a good dab of gasket sealant at each of the four corners of the oil pan gasket.

Replacing these parts improved the poor oil pressure I was having at the time, but it only lasted for a few months.

The real problem with mine ended up being the oil pump (among some other things that I may post about later) itself.

 :thumbsup:
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dna9656

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2019, 10:51:47 AM »

That's just exactly what I don't want to happen, man, you go through all that and the fix is not comprehensive ya know? It'll cost juts as much to go back in there the second time as it does the first time, the only difference is now you get to pay AGAIN! So I'm replacing the pick up tube, the pump and that so and so O ring all at the same time; I mean the dang pan gasket is $26.00 alone not to mention what ever costs were associated with moving the axle. I didn't realize the axle had to be moved, guess I better read up on that, it's still a smaller pain than pulling heads, intake, all that stuff, replacing the cam is not my fav thing not to mention cam bearings and the valve guide things....Jeeze, it just goes on and on!
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 21:31:45 PM by dna9656 »
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dna9656

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2019, 19:04:49 PM »

So, who makes a good quality timing gear and chain set that comes with the gasket(s)? Is there anything else needed besides the gears, chain and gaskets ? To those recommending a rebuilt ATK etc....  Not one re-builder I checked out has a very good rep if you read the reviews; every one of them pissed somebody off when it came to performing the warranty. Now you can go to Summit Racing (I suppose) or PAW (they still around?) and get a good reliable motor for $4,000 or rebuild it yourself, I do not have the tools and don't want to do it anyway, I'm 62 and too old for that big a job.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 19:25:11 PM by dna9656 »
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redheadedrod

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2019, 23:54:41 PM »

There is an ATK engines and a ATK High performance engines shop. Enoniam can share his experience with his engine. Pretty much ANY service you ever use is going to have people that were unhappy with something with it. You have to read what they say and see if it seems reasonable.

I have not heard anything bad about ATK High performance Engines.... I will likely have them build motors for my truck and my caprice.
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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2019, 05:42:06 AM »

redheadedrod makes a good point in that you will see negative reviews more often than positive reviews, in some cases.

You will always have to wade through all of the reviews and decide for yourself if the vendor is worthy of your business.

But, I am sure you are well aware of that.

I attribute that to the fact that some people that are unhappy are more likely to post negative reviews in an effort to dissuade others from using a vendor that they are unhappy with for whatever reason.

Not everyone is going to think about, or go to the effort of, posting a good review when things have gone smoothly.

While it may be helpful to take note of negative reviews, it does not necessarily mean that vendor is a bad one, in all cases.

I don't have the perfect answer for this, but I suppose for a large purchase, maybe pursuing additional information other than posted reviews about a vendor might be worthwhile.

Also, I am 60 and I do not relish the idea of heavy wrenching anymore.

I am lucky enough to have a trusted mechanic that does the heavy lifting for me.

 :thumbsup:
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2004 Cadillac Escalade EXT, White Diamond, New Shale front seat leather from The Seat Shop. WeatherTech FloorLiner DigitalFit. Powerflow Pro-Fit Splash Guards. Arnott/Bilstein front shocks and rear air shocks with Arnott air compressor kit. Refinish Restorer. SeaFoam. Goodyear (Now Continental) Gatorback belts. Goodyear Assurance CS TripleTred All-Seasons.

dna9656

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2019, 07:15:54 AM »

Wrenching is still fun until it becomes work or starts costing more than you figured, you need an additional part and you learn this just when you're about to finish the job... I have 2007 Chrysler Sebring; it has an interference engine, the book says it needed a timing belt (100,00 miles), the quote was $1300.00..... for a timing belt, you got to be kidding! I took on the job. There were complications you wouldn't believe, that was the first and last timing belt I'll do, except this job on the Avi; the Avi does not have 2 cams to time. I have done a few timing chain jobs on Chevy 2.8, 4.3, and small blocks. It looks pretty much the same thing on the 5.3 with the lovely exception of moving the front axle to change the timing chain and gears. As strong as the 5.3 is it's repair-ability is horrible. I have a VERY GOOD shop not far from me, expensive though, usually that comes hand in hand. The benefit of that is everything gets diagnosed right the first time as well as fixed right the first time. They quoted me $7k to replace the engine. Another well recommended shop quoted me $4k to just replace the cam and lifters, it was a 10 hour job he said. I got advice to buy a used engine from a well trusted friend here at home. My fear of that is you just may well have the same problem with that engine as well!
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 07:29:20 AM by dna9656 »
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2006 Chevy Avalanche,Z71, Upgraded to 4L65 E 2007 Standard 17" Chevy wheels but not the right year or style, new tires, exhaust, U joints, shocks, rear axle bearings and seals. New Driver's seat belt.  2007 Chrysler Sebring, 7  Yamaha motorcycles 6 Venture Royales 1 Road Star, 2 run, others for parts. 2 dachshunds, 1 house. 1 wife.

enoniam

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Re: Lifters & Rocker Arms
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2019, 10:56:45 AM »

The ATK High Performance Motor that I bought came with a 2 year unlimited mileage replacement warranty.  Their coverage on labor however was limited to $35/hour.  After 4 months and 4000 miles the engine dropped a valve when my wife was pulling into a parking lot.  To honor the warranty the motor had to be shipped back to ATK for them to inspect for signs of abuse.  (They ship motors with a temp sensitive sticker that shows if the motor was overheated.)  It took a week to get on my installer's schedule to pull the engine, another week for pulling and shipping the motor, a week for ATK to inspect and ship a replacement, and another week to get on the installer's schedule again.  Truck was down for about a month.  Given the low time and mileage ATK ended up paying the full remove and replace bill, paid everything but the tow bill.  Their replacement motor has been in the truck now for 4 years and has 26K miles on it.
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2003 with ATK 460 HP 6.0, Speed Engineering Long Tube Headers and true dual 3" exhaust, Truetrac rear, 3200 Circle D Stall, tranny upgraded with 4L65 and other heavy-duty parts, Weld Racing 18x10 forged wheels, HPTuners custom tune, Vortech supercharger, water/meth injection, Magnavolt fuel pump voltage booster, DeatschWerks booster fuel pump, 58#/hr injectors, 13.3 @ 101 in the quarter mile.
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