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C0327 & Service 4WD Msg

blhughes24

New Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2005
Messages
4
Location
Poconos of NE PA
I was lucky enough to locate this web site just yesterday in frustration from what looks to me like a MAJOR GM malfunction on our Av?s.  I have an ?02 (purchased used w/ 30K miles) and I now have over 52K miles on it.  Approximately 3 months or so ago, I experienced my 1st Service 4WD message.  It just came out of the blue.  Once I parked the vehicle, shut her down, went into work, and 8 hours later, when I started it up, I had no ?mode? lights indicating what I was actually in (2H, 4H, 4L) along w/ the Service 4 WD message.  During very slow speeds I could feel the front end ?4WD chatter? (if you will) when making a turn.  It?s to the point now, where it?s an adventure EVERY time I turn the ignition to the RUN position.  Due to experiencing this problem for as long as I have now, my symptoms seem to have changed JUST a bit.

Before going any further, I need to add that I have the Hypertec Power Programmer III.  I can read & clear the DTC?s (however w/ this problem, not 100% of the time), and discovered the code of C0327.  I called a local Chevy Dealer and asked if they would look up the error code for me.  I was told that the C0327 error code indicates that the Encoder Motor had an internal fault and I needed to have it replaced.  When I asked what the part was going to cost, I almost lost it.  I believe at the time it was approx $530 for the EM alone, not including any labor charges.  I?m well out of the warranty and this is going to be on me ?initially?.  Here?s where the only difference is from what I?ve read so far on these threads.

At times the vehicle seems perfectly normal.  When starting the truck the drivetrain mode LED?s ALL light up for a few sec?s, and ultimately the 2WD button illuminates properly, & NO Service 4WD message appears.  However, at ANY time the Service 4WD message will just appear w/ no apparent problems UNTIL the truck is turned off.  That?s where my ?adventures? usually begin.

If I shut it off, leave it off for at least 30 or more seconds, then re-start the truck, at times the 2WD button will light (normal), and NO Serevice Msg.  Then the next time I may get the 2WD 'normal' indication, but I?ll still get the Service 4WD Msg in spite of it feeling likes it?s driving normally in 2WD.  Then the next time I start the truck, I may end up w/ the ?mode? lights giving a quick flash, and then no LED's & no indication of what mode she?s in.  Of course then the Service 4WD Msg once again appears.  This is the condition when I don?t know what mode I?m in, and I can feel the front end acting as though it is in 4WD.  Then the next time when I start it up, the drive mode indicator lights may act normal, (quick flash of all the LED?s) & then 2WD is lit continuously.  I may drive for days, or even weeks before it acts up again.  (Service 4WD)  Then again, one symptom or another as I?ve explained may happen every time I start the truck.  This is so frustrating.  The last thing I want to do is replace the Encoder Motor (as suggested by the Chevy Dealer) and experience the very same problem later on.  Being an electrical part, I figure it?s not returnable and I?d be out over $550 or more.  There?s NO way I?ll accept that the motor is bad.  Motors just don?t fix themselves.  It has to be something controlling the motor, but the bottom line is, WHAT?  If there is any new information out there that can help, please point me in the right direction.  From what I?ve read, it looks to me like the problem has been happening from the on set of the Avalanche and still continues on 2005 models now as well.  How in the world can GM/Chevy allow a known problem to exist for such a long time?

:help:
 
First of all welcome to the club, try to contact Sperry (or he will eventually show up here), your in PA whatever you do you better do it soon, you don't want this thing getting worst in this weather. I just recently had a service 4wd message but I played with the control buttons on the steering wheel and it went back to normal, now I have an 04 with less than 9K's on it, I know this wasn't much help but I wish you luck.
Dave
Also check this out.
http://www.chevyavalanchefanclub.com/cafcna/index.php?topic=54203.new;topicseen#new
 
Thanks Dave.  Yes, I saw Sperry's name earlier so I sent him a seperate msg to see what he has to say.  Oh - yeah, I'm concerned especially w/ my location & season and having a problem like this occur.  As a matter of fact, just last PM very near my location had anywhere from 3", & up to 11" of snow from Wilma.  PLUS, I travel back & forth to Buffalo approx 10 X's during the NFL Season & it's not the best idea w/ these symptoms as you can imagine.

Bob
 
I had a Silverado that did this with 50,000 miles before I bought the AV. They just replaced the switch on the dash for $55. I then went on to put 85,000 w/o any problems. Take it to C Harper Chevy dealer in Bell Vernon if you live in West PA they are very honest and will give you a price before they do anything. Good Luck


OOPS you live in NE PA try another dealer
 
Sperry should be chiming in with some information shortly.

What was the Build Date on your rig? Check the driver's side door for the month & year. I know you said 02, but the month could help too. I thought it was only late build 02 through early build 04's that had this problem.

My 03, built 9/02, experienced this too at 4K miles. They did replace the part you described and a few other sensors.

All was fine and a few times I observed the dreaded Service 4 Wheel Drive message, but it would clear at the next start.

Just before my warranty ran out, my service guy went through my truck last March and up dated all the software and the transmission has never performed so consistently well.

YMMV
 
For the life of me, I can't understand how there isn't a recall on this problem. ?There HAS to be some form of action that can be taken to resolve this if it's SO common amongst what appears to be on the 02 thru '05 models.

Since I'm well out of warranty, the problem seems to be in my hands right now and I'll be the one that ends up shelling out the bucks to resolve this. ?It's just NOT right.
 
Hm, I have had the exact same problems, and went to 2 infact 3 different dealerships and my truck didn't show a code (as a side note my truck has shown a few service messages on the DIC but never has it once shown a code when they scan it???) and so nothing was ever done about it.  If this is a common problem I would have hoped there would be a service bulletin issued?  I have not noticed the symptoms in a while but it seems that they do not really show themselves until I actually use auto or 4wd then things start acting up.  As long as I am in 2wd drive the symptoms do not shpw.
 
I believe that's an encoder circuit fault.

I would clean up your wiring connector first. See if there is corrosion and/or moisture in it.

Here are some info links:

RPO NP8 Transfer Case 101

and

RPO NP8 Transfer Case - Service

Low voltages affect it too. It may be hard to swallow but even an ignition switch can cause this sort of problem! If the latch can't release or the motor doesn't have enough voltage because of some resistive switch contact or some connector corrosion.. Kind of a problem would ya think?

Anything better than forking out over $500 for the encoder/motor assy! If you can't find anything obvious, I'd just have the dealer do it. I doubt they would take the item back if it wasn't the problem.

There was another post recently regarding this HERE.

HTH!
 
this wasn't so common with '02s.

Yours is probably not just software, as was a problem with lots of '03s (including mine).

I'd try all of sperry's suggestions if it were my AV.
 
Another thought, I mentioned earlier in the other topic.. Has the software been updated yet? (Reference the "HERE" link, I posted above.)
 
I'm new to the Fan Club and actually this is the first message I have left.  Any help or feedback would be appreciated.  I just took my Avalanche in for an oil change and had then check the 4wd service indicator light that comes on.  They (the dealer) got back to me and said I need a new Encoder Motor.  They performed a Diagnostic Circuit Check and found that the Encoder Motor is Faulty.    I usually only have my Avalanche in Auto 4WD when it is raining or if I'm driving through the snow.  It seems like there have been lots of problems -- you would think GM will do a recall on them or something.  ???  Has anyone heard of a recall or know if GM actually knows about these problems.  Has anyone gotten this Encoder Motor replaced?  If so what is the price range?
 
Hello and :welcome:  to CAFCNA!

They change those a lot. Hopefully in warranty, as they're over $500!

I'll bet it isn't always the problem. I've heard of connector moisture & corrosion and even the keyswitch causing the problems.

They supposed to change it if a C0550 shows. Not a C0337. The latter is usually a software update, as covered earlier here.

Note that you may want to place your Av model year in your sig text for now.

We have no Idea what year model you have at this point!
 
I have an '03 and had the same symptoms at the end of may. Went right to the dealer with the message and no light on the drive indicator. They hooked up the scanner while it was still running and found a fault at the transfer case. The truck was shut off and restarted. After restart the fault was gone, and every thing was normal. The dealer had no explanation and sent query to GM. GM's response was that the computer reset itself on restart and cleared the fault but could not explain what caused the fault. I have not had a recurrence except that last month my tranyy was rebuilt. A massive slip started to occur at 50kph (30mph). Turns out a clutch seal was blown between the third and fourth sector? after the rebuild the tech played with the setting on the chip. Since then the shifts are increadably smooth and unbeleivable power.
 
my encoder motor was "rebuilt" as per an earlier TSB.  This did not solve the problem on mine.  Finally a software update (march '04) seemed to fix it.  Still holding my breath.

If they are sure that the motor is bad then fine.  If they *think* that might be the problem and are just trying to replace and hope then I'd be skeptical.
 
Well,  Here you Go.....  I have 04 Silverado Crew cab Z71....  Lately I will get in and the truck will already be in 4 low or sometimes I will get in and it will show that the indicator light will say nuteral....  Though it still runs like it is in 4 high.. 

Then My "" Service four wheel drive"" pops up in my information center.  When Service 4 wheel drive comes on I have no controle of my buttons to switch to 4 high or 4 low and all  that.  But If I turn my ignition off and turn it back on the thing works for a little while till the ""service 4 wheel drive"" comes back on...

Here is what I know.  I have the same problem as you but I know something you do not know. 

There is a sensor inside the encoder motor.  I purchased the sensor today at a chevy dealership.  I cost 100 dollars.  to put it in myself. 

I suggest you all go out and buy the encodor motor sensor ... don't be fooled into buing the encoder motor itself... 500 dollars... The guy at the parts counter almost sold it to me by mistake.  But I know better..

Hope the best for you all... Have a great New Year... I only came on here today to tell you all this.. I am going to remove myself... now  Bye Bye...

 
Try this: LINK

Although the position of this on your Silverado frame may be different in some ways, this may be where your transfer case gets it's ground.
It didn't clear my intermittent ABS light but I hadn't had an intermittent Service 4WD since I cleaned the frame contact area and the contact parts. Also, both of my fasteners here were loose.

BTW, it's easy access, a 13 mm wrench (if I remember :2: ) and some steel wool to remove the frame paint under the lugs and washers.
 
BTW, that frame area shown in the link is under the driver floorboard/firewall.
 
Preamble

I don't post that often, but the subject of this thread, and the two other threads like it (that sperry linked above), was one of my main reasons for joining CACFC... I haven't found any other GM truck website as informative on this and other technical topics (like Lux Nav, etc).


Mucho Props

Much credit is due to the moderators (like sperry) for their attention to detail and organization of the information here, as well as to the many members for adding their experiences.? As a member, it is time that I give back and add to the experience pool:


On Topic

I had an intermittant Service 4WD message, throwing code C0327, as early as only 10,000 miles in my 2005 3/4 ton that I bought brand new.? The drivetrain is a 6.0/4L80E/4x4/4.10 gear with the NP8-NVG246 transfer case.

To fix it, what the dealer replaced on my vehicle was the encoder motor SENSOR,? not the entire encoder motor.? The encoder sensor is a very small donut shaped disc (about 2" diameter) that has an encapsulated circular printed circuit going around the circumference, that tails out into a connector.? ?

I know what the part looks like because I went to the parts department before the back counter released the new part to the technician, and asked to look at it.? They handed it to me, I looked it over, I handed it back, they handed it to the tech.

The GM part number to the Encoder Sensor is 88962315.

The GM Technical Document that outlines the procedure the dealership used to diagnose and repair faults from code C0327 is GM Document # 1720739.

The parts department already had the sensor in stock 88962315...? I was told that it is very common for these sensors to have to be replaced.

While my repair was covered entirely under the original factory warranty, I believe that the Encoder Sensor is considerably less expensive than the entire Encoder Motor, so if you are not under warranty, and a check of all connections still did not resolve the problem, you might consider replacing only the encoder sensor before buying a whole encoder motor assembly.


Ancillary Information

The scan tool that is free to borrow or rentable at AutoZone will NOT reveal this chassis code (C0327) stored in history.? Many Body (B0xxx) and Chassis (C0xxx) codes are not part of the federally mandated OBDII diagnostics system, as the diagnostic fault codes do not materially effect emissions.

Furthermore, many software scan tools (like Auto Enginuity, Auto Tap, etc) are incapable of retrieving certain Body and Chassis codes for vehicle specific ancillary systems.? I am very impressed that the Hypertech programmer was able to pull up the code.? I tried several code readers (including the best ones at AutoZone) which did not reveal the code.

However, if you subscribe to ONSTAR, believe it or not, they can pull the code, and give you the code number, if you ask.? ?It helps if you already know what the possibilities are, as the Onstar operator may not know what to tell you.? You can say, "do you a number like 'C0327'?"? This gives them guidance as to what to look for on whatever screen they are looking at.

To help you help them, or help yourself if you have access to a REAL scan tool (like a Tech II or a professional scan tool), here is a list of Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs) that would cause a Service 4WD Message to light for the NP8 - NVG246:

B0790
B2725
C0300
C0305
C0306
C0321
C0327
C0359
C0374
C0379
C0550

Note that these are all Body and Chassis codes, which require a more sophisticated code reader endowed with the software to pull them up.? One more type code related to the transfer case shift module is a Communication fault code:

U1026


On Intermittancy

It is unwise to assume that just because the Service4WD message light goes out on it's own, that the problem fixed itself or went away.? It is equally unwise to assume that because the message appears, then disappears, then reappears days later, that the problem is intermittant.? That could be a trap of wishful thinking that might end up costing a lot more than a sensor down the road.

The intermittancy could be because the conditions for the computer to rediscover and report the fault and trigger the message light are intermittant, while the fault remains.? When the start cycle or drive cycle encounters a particular condition, and the data returned doesn't add up, then bing, the light comes on.? After that drive cycle is complete, and the next drive cycle is begun, it may well be that the computer hasn't encoutered the condition during the next drive cycle that would cause it to report the fault.? But the underlying problem could still be there.

The safest course of action is to have the Av scanned as soon as possible after the first Service 4WD message light appears, even if the light disappears after the next ignition cycle.? It is best to retrieve whatever codes were set and stored in history, so that you don't continue to drive in such away that a sensor part grows into a hard part breakdown, because the sensor was giving the wrong data to the motors that move the hard parts.


A Possible Root Cause

I've given a lot of thought to this Sevice 4WD / Encoder Motor / Encoder Sensor issue, and have tried to figure if there is anything I might have done... any type of driving behavior or otherwise, that could have caused the fault.

Surely, after the GMT800 chassis was already 6 years in production, GM would have noticed the warranty claims and would have curtailed this liability by adjusting the part to make it more robust.? I'm thinking they did that, but there is something that we driver's might do that GM engineers have not anticipated.

Here's what I DIDN'T do:? No Offroading, No Mudbogging, No brake stands, No drag racing, No chips, no programmers, no exhaust, no intake, no nothing.

My vehicle was bone stock, exactly as it was when it left the factory, and is driven conservatively by someone with graying hair, who excerised the 4WD system to keep it maintained and lubricated by operating it on a level, loose gravel parking lot once in a while.

But here is what I DID do, that MIGHT have caused the error: I changed the oil.

Don't laugh.? I'm serious.? And while I was changing the oil, I rotated the front driveshaft with my hand.? ?Why did I do this?? And why might it matter?

First, why it might matter... (but I do not know that it did... below is just an untested, unproven hypothesis of mine, revealed here for your challenge or consideration):

The circuit description for the transfer case encoder states that the encoder is an analog sensor that returns a signal that represents the physical position of the transfer case sector shaft.? I rotated my front drive shaft by hand, and I do not know what that other components inside the transfercase also rotated and changed position from where they were before the front of the vehicle was lifted in the air for me to change the oil.

The front driveshaft would otherwise have no other way to change it's rotational position unless commanded to engage by the transfer case control module.? If this theory holds any water, and there was a connection between the front driveshaft and the encoder position sensor, and the last known position state was altered unexpectedly, causing a data fault that could not be resolved, then maybe I should't be playing around with my shaft.

So, why did I rotate the front driveshaft while changing the oil?

Simple.? I wanted to see if the front drive shaft in my "Texas" assembled truck was made in China, like the rear drive shaft is (Pudong Province, to be specific).? I was rotating the front shaft to find a label of manufacturing origin.

After that oil change, my Service 4WD light appeared for the first time.

Now, think about when you change the oil, or when you bring it to the local Oil Changer's place for them to change it.? Do you use the front drive shaft to "pull" yourself under the truck as you roll along in a creeper??

I used to do that, because the driveshaft is the cleanest thing to grab, as the frame has all that black sticky goo anticorrosion wax all over it.? I sure don't anymore.? Whether my hypothesis is right or wrong, I don't touch that driveshaft now.? Do you know what the oil changer guy is grabbing a hold of when he is under there?


Conclusion

Hope some of the earlier information helps.? It took a long time to gather it all, well over two hours to type it all, and I know this is an unusually long post, but this site was very helpful to me when I had this particular problem, and maybe this info can be added to the other info to make a one stop shop for future AV and GM truck owners with this common problem.

CoveredAV


 
Thanks to everyone ( especially sperry and CoveredAV) for the detailed information.

I have a 2003 Avalanche that has been getting the SERVICE 4WD message "randomly" for the last month.  When I took it into the dealer, there were no active messages.  History showed C0306, C0327, C0379.  They cleaned all connections and found no issues.  But the error reoccurred a few days later.

CoveredAV - Assuming your hypothesis is correct (rotating the front shaft caused the SERVICE 4WD message to appear, would the replacement of the encoder motor sensor fix the possible misalignment?  We usually drive in Automatic 4WD but with the bad weather recently, we have been using the 4WD High setting.

The only reason I ask is I had an oil change/4X4 service a few months back, and I am wondering if we did not expose this problem until we started to use the 4WD system.
 
Many thanks to CoveredAV for his in depth research on the topic.?

I took my AV in today due to the "Service 4wd message" plus some other issues and received the same recommendation? which was to replace the entire encoder motor.? The estimate was substantial for replacement and I decided to resarch the problem, which is how I arrived at this site.

My question or curiosity really is how did it turn out to replace the encoder motor sensor rather than the entire motor fixture??.....I was discussing the problem with my girlfriend and she suggested that replacing the sensor could be a "short term fix" simply delaying the inevitable replacement of the entire motor fixture.

I would be interested to hear back from CoveredAV or anyone who may have encountered the same problem.

Thanks in advance....Chuck
 
ceuiii and sainiak,

First, thanks for your kind words of appreciation.? I'm glad that you were able to find some benefit from my post on this problem, as that was precisely the goal of my taking the time to do it... to help others in the same predicament.? Of which there are many.

The problem is far too common, and far too costly for consumers out of warranty who hardly ever use their 4WD to begin with.? GM continues to undermine the reputation of their vehicles by carrying on with this obviously unreliable design.

As to your girlfriend's concern that replacing only the encoder motor sensor is a temporary band-aid to impending encoder motor failure, it might be best to consider exactly what the encoder motor is, and what it does.

GM Service Document ID # 1445602, "Transfer Case Description and Operation" for the New Venture Gear Model? NVG 246 EAU RPO NP8 (descriptive keywords included here to assist future searchers),? the transfer case motor/encoder is the part that turns the shift detent lever shaft of the transfer case, either clockwise or counter clockwise, in order to shift the transfer case.?

It basically does what our hands and arms used to do back when 4WD trucks had stick levers sticking up through the floor board tunnel to shift the old cast iron NP 203, 205, and 208 transfer cases.

Since we now only use fingers to push buttons on the Transfer Case Shift Control Module,? the bi-directional permanent magnet DC motor and gear reduction assembly that makes up the Transfer Case Motor/Encoder actually does the work of shifting the detent lever to move the transfer case from 2HI or 4HI to Neutral and 4LO positions.

So, if you are able to successfully shift the transfer case after only the encoder motor sensor alone is replaced, and once shifted, you can "feel" and see that the rig is in 4WD or 2WD, it would appear that the transfer case motor/encoder is doing it's job.

The transfer case encoder is mounted to the transfer case motor/encoder assembly, and this early description and operation GM Service document I'm referencing states that they are to be replaced as an assembly.? However, apparently GM has subsequently refined this procedure, and obviously approves and supports the replacement of only the encoder motor sensor, as evidenced by this singular part being in stock at dealerships, and by GM's warranty reimbursement for the replacement of the sensor alone.

With this in mind, replacement of the sensor alone does not appear to be a bandaid fix for the encoder motor itself.? It may still be a temporary fix, because the same part (the sensor) might fail again, barring any significant change in design.

Additional details on how the encoder works electrically:

The encoder is what converts the shift detent lever sjaft position into an electrical signal input to the the transfer case shift control module, which is the module that detects what posotion the transfer case is in by monitoring the voltage returned on the encoder signal circuit.? This voltage is translated into the mode or range of the transfer case, ie Auto 4WD, 4WD, 2HI, 4HI, Neutral, and 4LO... or in transition between.

The transfer case shift control module controls the transfer case motor/encoder with a pulse width modulated circuit that consists of a driver on both the Motor A and Motor B circuits... hence the bi-directionality of the motor/encoder to turn both clockwise and counterclockwise to shift position.

There is also a lock circuit on the motor that insures that the transfer case remains in the selected gear position unti a new gear position is requested.? When the lock circuit is energized, the transfer case encoder motor is allowed to turn to change position.? Once the transfer case is placed into 2HI, 4HI, or 4LO, this lock circuit is deenergized and the lock is applied.? But when AUTO 4WD is selected, the motor lock remains applied only until torque is required to be applied to the front propshaft.? Then it switches to an "adaptive" mode, where the motor lock circuit is energized (releasing the lock), which enables to the encoder motor to turn and apply or release torque at the front propshaft.

A little beyond electrical...

Which brings up a second major function of an encodor motor... it is what applies the clutch pack to deliver power flow to the front propshaft, transferring torque to the front wheels.? ?The encoder motor accomplishes this by turning a cam designed control actuator shaft which moves the clutch lever that pivots on on studs and moves toward the clutch apply plate, to engage the clutch.

When my Service 4WD message appeared, I was still able to shift into and out of 4WD, and while operating in 4WD, I felt and saw that the front propshaft was turning, as were the front half shafts at the wheels.? This leads me to suspect that the Service Message was reporting electrical issues, voltage values not expected, something of that nature.? ?If the encoder motor itself was failing or fubar'ed, it would seem that I would first not be able to shift between all modes and ranges of the transfer case, and second, not be able to see the front propshaft and half shafts turning.

So at least in my case, the encoder motor sensor seemed to be the appropriate fix, as diagnosed by the repair flow chart indicatied for DTC 327.? And I suspect that many cases will the the same as mine.

However, within this post are ways that you can be sure that your encoder motor is doing it's job, especially with the help of your girlfriend.? Have her drive on a soft dirt surface, and engage 4HI, while you crouch or lay low along side the vehicle to see that both the front half shafts AND the front propshaft are turning while she is driving slow.? Have her do the same in 4LO.? If the system is engaging mechanically, then the fact that you can A) shift the transfer case between modes, and B) see the truck working in 4WD, are at least two indications that the encoder motor is doing it's job mechanically.

Just make sure she isn't mad at you for anything, lest she use the opportunity to run you over, "accidently".? ? :kidding:

 
can anyone tell me were the transfercase encoder motor optical sensor is located ?  Thank you
 
Replaced the "encoder motor Sensor" today after coming across this thread.  The part cost $83 from the dealer.  All symptoms appear to have been cured and all is well.

I did notice a lot of oily fluid in the "case" and on the sensor and sensor connector and wondered if one was to just clean the connector if this wouldn't "fix" the problems.  Like most I had the part and everything apart so I just installed it and put things back together but....if someone tries this approach they should post there results as it is not that bad of a job to pull and install
 
I would like to thank everyone posting in this thread especially Colored AV and Sperry. Your wealth of knowledge is rare and the fact that it is available to those reading this thread is amazing... I just ran into this problem with my 03 avalanche two days ago... I was scared to death tonight while I was driving home, my feet started vibrating violently and a whining sound was coming from the front... as I glanced over to the indicators for the drive my truck was in 4Low and I was on I-95 doing 65mph!!!!!!

I pulled over immediately and engaged my 2WD, with a sigh I continued my trip home... earlier when I was driving it didn't feel like it was in 4Low... I was in the city, and I recall there being a very distinct difference in the way the vehicle drives when it's in 4Low, and I didn't feel that for the half hour of driving I was doing before I hopped on the interstate, could this problem cause my drive to switch while in motion???

I haven't had the chance to get my truck to a code reader that can read the problem, but tomorrow on my day off I'm going to hop under the truck (without grabbing the front driveshaft) locate the sensor and attempt to clean it off and see if that has any difference...

I know a sensor read at the Chevy dealership by my house is only $70 to find out that I need an $80+ part :beating:... but I'd like to try and clean this sucker off before I do so, just incase... I'll post my results as well as the actions I take... I think I'll take pictures as well... maybe a video, might even put some good montage music behind it...

Anyway, I'll check the forum before I do it in case anyone has a big NO WAIT underneath of my post... Thanks for the help so far fella's, it's saving a lot of money for a guy who sure doesn't have much of it!
 
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