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SNOW meth/water injection....opinions

INresponse

SM 2008
SM 2007
Full Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
3,026
Location
Southern Nevada
OK, now that I am getting a better understanding of this FI stuff I am planning to add Meth/Water injection.  I like what I read about the SNOW injection system and would like opinions or first hand knowledge on how it works for you.  Their web site reads:

"Snow Performance has developed a new Stage-2 Boost Cooler? water/methanol injection system for ?96 + GM mass air flow equipped vehicles that uses a new Digital Variable Controller that varies the quantity injected with the engines mass air flow. Because the correct amount is injected at all RPM/engine loads, power and drivability is much improved over the typical on-off systems. The Variable Controller features adjustments for onset mass air flow level and full quantity mass air flow level so the injection curve can be maximized for each application and can be mounted under hood or on the dash for adjustments while driving. The Digital Controller reads the frequency output from the GM MAF sensor to the PCM and varies the injection quantity accordingly.

Other Stage-2 features include a 150psi pump and specially designed two-chamber nozzles for even better cooling/atomization."

Sounds nifty, but I take that with a grain of salt.  Can someone offer first hand experience information on how it works?  I may not even mind second had hear-say.

Thanks, Michael
 
The best place I've found to get detailed information about meth kits is PerformanceTrucks.net. The other two jokers you've been listening to, besides me occasionally, get a lot of their information over there also. If I remember correctly from some of the threads over there, some people were having issues with the fittings leaking on the Snow kit.

 
INresponse said:
Sounds nifty, but I take that with a grain of salt.? Can someone offer first hand experience information on how it works?? I may not even mind second had hear-say.

Thanks, Michael

Well...well...if it isn't my little buddy needing info again... I like that...well sit down in that chair right there and let me tell you about that Snow Performance kit.... I was just out washing the truck's engine compartment so in a little bit I can show you the rest of that kit.... You saw the nozzle? in my other post about the relocated IAT sensor.....

The Snow Stage 2 kit has a 150psi pump and a variable controller. There are two types of variable controllers. One is boost referenced, and one is MAF referenced. I believe BBA is installing the MAF referenced kit as we speak. My kit is boost referenced. I start my spray at 1 psi and go full spray at 10 psi..... I spent a couple weeks coming up with this combo by tuning with HP Tuners watching both IAT levels and AFR. The kit nozzles are sized by "horsepower".... You order the nozzle sizes based on airflow and power output. I have one of the largest nozzles they sell in a kit, 500+ hp 625ml nozzle. I also have a smaller 375ml nozzle, but it does not have half of the effect the 625 does...

Two things to watch other than IAT....too large a nozzle will extinguish the spark...we think Bob is struggling with this....the other item is fueling....the meth is a fuel adder so with the kit you will run richer while spraying....this is an easy fix with tuning software....

With all that said.....performance......hehe...must guys tuning over at HP Tuner forums get confused when they see my logs...If there is an issue I am struggling with and have to post up about, invariably someone will miss my Snow kit in the siggy and start commenting on my "erratic" IAT's. They see the IAT's run up to 135* under boost then drop suddenly to 80* and then start climbing again to nearly 100* by the end of the run..... They think this is a problem.... hehe

On a 80-85* day my driving around IAT's hover at 130-135*...this is the temp off the discharge tube of the blower....Meth drops that instantly to mid 80* and continues up to 100* by the end of the run.....what this does is allow me to run 10* minimum more timing up top than I could run prior to the meth kit...I have yet to test the limit of this due to the MAF limitation I am fighting now on my truck....I have seen some tuners run 28-30* up top. I currently run 22. Prior to the kit I could only run 15 or so...........

Parrish installed a meth kit on his truck and saw a 100 hp increase...... I would hazard a guess that the additional timing and fueling probably net me around 50 hp.....

So for all of you that are still awake, that is my personal exprience with the Snow Performance Stage 2 kit..... I will post pics ths afternoon of my install....

Now, back to my vacation................
 
FlaBouy said:
Well...well...if it isn't my little buddy needing info again... I like that...well sit down in that chair right there and let me tell you about that Snow Performance kit.... I was just out washing the truck's engine compartment so in a little bit I can show you the rest of that kit.... You saw the nozzle? in my other post about the relocated IAT sensor.....

The Snow Stage 2 kit has a 150psi pump and a variable controller. There are two types of variable controllers. One is boost referenced, and one is MAF referenced. I believe BBA is installing the MAF referenced kit as we speak. My kit is boost referenced. I start my spray at 1 psi and go full spray at 10 psi..... I spent a couple weeks coming up with this combo by tuning with HP Tuners watching both IAT levels and AFR. The kit nozzles are sized by "horsepower".... You order the nozzle sizes based on airflow and power output. I have one of the largest nozzles they sell in a kit, 500+ hp 625ml nozzle. I also have a smaller 375ml nozzle, but it does not have half of the effect the 625 does...

Two things to watch other than IAT....too large a nozzle will extinguish the spark...we think Bob is struggling with this....the other item is fueling....the meth is a fuel adder so with the kit you will run richer while spraying....this is an easy fix with tuning software....

With all that said.....performance......hehe...must guys tuning over at HP Tuner forums get confused when they see my logs...If there is an issue I am struggling with and have to post up about, invariably someone will miss my Snow kit in the siggy and start commenting on my "erratic" IAT's. They see the IAT's run up to 135* under boost then drop suddenly to 80* and then start climbing again to nearly 100* by the end of the run..... They think this is a problem.... hehe

On a 80-85* day my driving around IAT's hover at 130-135*...this is the temp off the discharge tube of the blower....Meth drops that instantly to mid 80* and continues up to 100* by the end of the run.....what this does is allow me to run 10* minimum more timing up top than I could run prior to the meth kit...I have yet to test the limit of this due to the MAF limitation I am fighting now on my truck....I have seen some tuners run 28-30* up top. I currently run 22. Prior to the kit I could only run 15 or so...........

Parrish installed a meth kit on his truck and saw a 100 hp increase...... I would hazard a guess that the additional timing and fueling probably net me around 50 hp.....

So for all of you that are still awake, that is my personal exprience with the Snow Performance Stage 2 kit..... I will post pics ths afternoon of my install....

Now, back to my vacation................

Thats a LOT of information!!  :eek:
 
Great info Fla...you make it so much more understandable...you should go into teaching :p I bet people would pay you to learn all this stuff...I know I would.

still soaking it all in,
mo
 
mikenmo23 said:
Great info Fla...you make it so much more understandable...you should go into teaching :p I bet people would pay you to learn all this stuff...I know I would.

still soaking it all in,
mo

A few visual aides.... BTW, if I start teaching, will you promise to be the teacher's pet...?


Engine Bay Overall pic and the shot of my empty Meth bottle......
 

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Next is the controller mounted just under battery relay and the shot across the nozzel pump is in the lower left on passenger side wheelwell...................
 

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KY_BOB said:
Just reading....


I've learned a lot from you but I'm not petting a d@mn thing of yours! ?Mo, on the other hand.... >:D

You just got an "F"....... Oh wait...that means you will be back next year.... You just recieved an "A" my friend...Mo on the otherhand...or with the other hand..... >:D
 
FlaBouy,  This is the SNOW kit I am planning on buying.

Boost Cooler? Stage-2 GM MAF  Price: $439.00   

http://www.snowperformance.net/proddetail.asp?prod=auto023

Am I on the right track....in you humble opinion?

Thanks again,
Michael
 
He has the kit that is boost referenced as opposed to the MAF referenced kit.? IMO that kit would be just as good or better IF you have no intentions of ever surpassing the limits of your MAF.? I know that I never had any intentions of doing that but I also hit 11,400hrz on my MAF this weekend and the top end is 11,500.


???
 
INresponse said:
FlaBouy,? This is the SNOW kit I am planning on buying.

Boost Cooler? Stage-2 GM MAF? ?Price: $439.00? ? ?

http://www.snowperformance.net/proddetail.asp?prod=auto023

Am I on the right track....in you humble opinion?

Thanks again,
Michael

Hmmm...I think that is the kit tha BBA has just purchased for his truck.... I believe it is the exact components I run with the exception of the controller. As Bob said, I run a boost referenced controller and that kit has a MAF referenced controller. I have no personal experience with the MAF referenced controller, but far be it from me to withhold my humble opinion...... >:D

I would think the resolution would be better on the MAF reference since the engine load is reflected instantly through the MAF, rather than waiting on boost to build. The PCM has a few tables that deal with offsets that control engine functions that nullify the effects of the delay of when air is being registered at the MAF and when it actually hits the cylinder. One could make an aurgument both ways on whether you would rather spray based on the MAF reference or the boosted reference. My thought process is centered around boost. Boost created by the blower builds heat. The heat produced is almost a pure linear byproduct of the impellor speed and therefore easier in my humble opinion to consistently tune for. Again I qualify this by saying I have no experience in the MAF referenced kit. I could probably be persuaded fairly easily that the MAF reference is as easy and consistent to tune for... anyone out there have any hard data with one of these systems...?
 
Good, very good.  Now I have one last question....until the next question.

How does this meth/water injection work if you are driving in cold weather, like maybe 30 degrees in the winter, or colder?  I know the supercharger will still heat the aircharge, but has anyone had a problem with this?

I know when I lived in Michigan, in the winter if you used window washer fluid you were ok but if you watered it down too much on the cold days it would turn to slush or freeze, and that would be bad.  I don't expect a 50/50 solution of meth/water to give a problem on the rare occasions I go up the mountains in the winter.  Maybe I am just thinking too much.

Thanks,
Michael
 
I don't think that it would ever be an issue.  As you said the supercharger generates a lot of heat when building boost, the only time the water/meth is spraying.

Straight -20deg washer fluid is just over 30% alky.  When you spike it to 50% it wouldn't freeze till VERY COLD.

With tuning software, it would be easy to check you IAT but I don't see any way it could get to 30-40 below zero.



 
Great, that is what I thought, but had to ask.

Just sent a bunch of money to Capital 1, time to dust off the card again.

Thanks,
Michael

(I wonder if the 115 degree days we have now might make evaporate real fast or spontaniously combust)
 
INresponse said:
(I wonder if the 115 degree days we have now might make evaporate real fast or spontaniously combust)

Fla thinks that he may have lost some of the alcohol content of his mix due to evaporation, since alcohol evaporates faster than water and his tank isn't air tight.  He had been speed density tuning and never going into boost for the last couple of months, so the tank hadn't been refilled for a long time.  Mine doesn't stay around long enough the evaporate. :rolleyes:

I think mine is air tight or at least real close to it.

 
KY_BOB said:
I don't think that it would ever be an issue.? As you said the supercharger generates a lot of heat when building boost, the only time the water/meth is spraying.

Straight -20deg washer fluid is just over 30% alky.? When you spike it to 50% it wouldn't freeze till VERY COLD.

With tuning software, it would be easy to check you IAT but I don't see any way it could get to 30-40 below zero.


I agree with Bobby. You are using a winterized window washer fluid that adds the methyl alcohol to prevent freezing during the winter. The premium mix has about a 30 to 34% alcohol content to prevent freezing to -20. Since you are adding heet, which is a fuel additive to prevent fuel line freezing, and moving the alcohol content to 50/50, the meth bottle will be the last bottle on your ride to freeze. As far as leaving it out for long periods, I fly radio control helicopters. Our fuel is a nitro mix that does deteriate over time in containers that let in light and are porous enough to let the nitro molecules escape. I am always conscious about the shelf life of my mix and how long it has been in the bottle. The fueling parameters in my tune depend on the fueling aspect of the chemical intercooling, so I have to be aware of the percentage I am running at any given time..... My bottle does not seal very well from Snow.... I have added some electrical tape to the threads on the bottle to assist sealing, but only a time trial will answer how evaporation affects the mix....

Git R Done...............

 
Ordered the SNOW meth/water kit today.  Also ordered the 7 quart reservoir since most places I drive to will probably use more that the 2 quart stock bottle will hold.

Next step is locating a methanol source.  A fuel supply depot carries methanol in 55 gallon drums for $150.00, plus $25.00 deposit for the drum, but I am not sure about leaving that much sitting outside in the heat and I know I don't want that much in the garage....under the bedrooms!

Maybe I should start out with using window washer fluid.....anyone know of a preferred brand that contains methanol?

Michael
 
INresponse said:
Ordered the SNOW meth/water kit today.? Also ordered the 7 quart reservoir since most places I drive to will probably use more that the 2 quart stock bottle will hold.

Next step is locating a methanol source.? A fuel supply depot carries methanol in 55 gallon drums for $150.00, plus $25.00 deposit for the drum, but I am not sure about leaving that much sitting outside in the heat and I know I don't want that much in the garage....under the bedrooms!

Maybe I should start out with using window washer fluid.....anyone know of a preferred brand that contains methanol?

Michael

We all use windshield washer fluid mixed with "Heet" (in the yellow bottle).  Get fluid that listed as winter washer fluid, at least -20deg.  Add 2 bottles of Heet (which is 99% methanol to it and you get real close to 50/50.  I'll cost you  $3-$4 to mix a gallon if you get it all at Wal Mart.

I bought a hydrometer to check my mix with but it's not necessary.

 
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