Alternative For More Bass: Mcintosh

[sreidvt]

Like a lot of folks on this list, I've been wrestling with the subwoofer challenge since I need full use of my truck, seats, midgate, etc.. I've considered putting Kicker midbass drivers in the rear doors among other things.

Yesterday, I had some free time between appointments and stopped by a really good audio place I've used in the past. The first task was to define the problem: what I'm looking for is accurate reproduction across a broad range (in a perfect world, I'd have car speakers that had no drop or boost from 30 hz. to 20,000 hz and no coloration). I don't need or want thumpin' bass to pound the pavement with. The 6.5" Polks I'm using right now seem to just fade away below, maybe, 150 hz (I'm guessing here) but, for example, the low notes on a bass violin just aren't there. I listen to Mingus Ah Um and I can hear the rest of the group but not the man himself.

A Crutchfield salesperson last week tried to convince me that a 6.5" driver just couldn't go very far down no matter how it was designed. I didn't agree but didn't argue.

So, yesterday, I was listening to various speakers and amps in combination and got to a McIntosh combination that blew me away. Amp was, I think, an MCC204 and the speakers were MS540s (just 5.25"). The sound was incredible and the bass stayed solid and natural low enough for a bass violin to sound great. And this was coming from 5.25" drivers! So much for conventional wisdom. The 6.5" drivers had even more bass reach I was told (which would make sense).

The downside: amp and two component speakers run $1000 but man was that sound good. I'm going to start hunting around for used units and, if not, might just bite the bullet. Not only was the bass end better but the whole frequency range was the best I've ever heard out of a car system.

 

[ygmn]

I have always liked McIntosh home A/V stuff since I was a kid and we lived near the factory in Binghamton NY...

Great stuff......

 

[zimmthumps]

Very good stuff, but very expensive...

If you can't find the room anywhere to put a sub, than that may be your best bet to get deep bass.

 

[DS]

Regarding the McIntosh equipment: I hated to see McIntosh purchased by Clarion, everyone in the audio industry seemed to cringe. We've all been relieved to see that Mac remains unchanged pumping out high quality products.

McIntosh mobile amps are among the best regarding build quality in the mobile industry. They use components of the highest quality internally and back their products with excellent customer service and a good warranty. However, can you hear the difference in a McIntosh and another respectably built class A/B amp? No, so save some cash unless you like the product due to the fact that it is unusual, prestigious or you've been a fan of Mac stuff for years.

As for their component speakers: McIntosh does not build drivers themselves, unlike their amps which are made in-house. Clarion simply see the common logic of having a speaker line to sell with their amps. Do they sound good? Yes, they do. Are they spectacular? No, they aren't. You can actually find many sets that will surpass the sound quality of the McIntosh speakers, and definately surpass them by a great length in the performance to dollar spent ratio. The McIntosh speaker line is absolutely nothing spectacular from the standpoint of design and engineering. Keep in mind that I'm not saying they don't sound good or don't perform well, just that they don't live up to the same reputation of the amps. Check out Dynaudio, Focal, Morel, Peerless, MB Quart's (sadly owned by Rockford Fosgate now) Q-series, if you want something that is undeniably high end and will perform beyond just about anything else you can buy from a normal dealer.

Just a general comment about the sound you heard......a component set with a 6 1/2" driver should easily produce excellent transient response in the midbass range and some lower bass with no problem, IF INSTALLED CORRECTLY. It would be a shame to buy the McIntosh speakers, or any other high end line and simply slap them into the doors of the AV. Would a definite improvement be made? Well sure, but you would not receive 1/4 of the benefit of the cash spent on the speakers, and could easily achieve the same results with a Sony set from Wal-Mart. A little work will certainly yeild amazing results. I had the midbasses in my last vehicle crossed over at 56Hz, with a 24dB slope, so they produced excellent low end output in the front of the vehicle. Thanks!

 

[sreidvt]

What a great forum! ?Thanks for the feedback. Lessee....

It does seem that Mcintosh quality hasn't suffered since the Clarion buyout in 92. ?In fact, the cash infusion might have been very helpful.

I seemed to hear an actual difference between the Macintosh amp and several other amps at the audio store. ?It sounded cleaner, warmer and had better bass response. ?My imagination? ?Who knows? ?What I've done so far is to order a refurbished MC425 (50 watts x 2) via a reputable company for only $230. ?At that price, its worth playing with.

I'm going to run from the RCA preamp front channel outs on the Eclipse to the McIntosh amp and out to front component speakers (more about those below). ?I'll use the Polk coaxs as fill in the rear doors and power them straight from the Eclipse headunit amp (which is not bad, actually).

Now, as for the component speakers in the front (the stars of the show more or less)...I'm very curious about DS's comment on the Macs being rebranded Clarions? ?Is that really the case? ?If so, I'm glad to have been warned. ?Going by my ears alone, the best sounding speakers at Creative Sound yesterday were the Macs and the MB quarts...but...the Macs sounded better to me. ? I've owned various Polks and always liked them but the character of the sound seems to me to be a lot like the MBQs I heard (6.5" components): good midrange presence, good high end detail (but a little shrill at times) and rather weak bass (even through several diff. amps). ?The Macs sounded flatter and held better down into the low notes.

The Mac speakers are expensive and I'm not wed to them so I'd love to look at alternates. ?Open to suggestions. ?By the way, the last Bostons I heard seemed a lot like the Polks but maybe I need to listen again.

Thanks

 

[DS]

That seems to be a good deal on the Mac amp, especially if it is waranteed by the refurbisher. When it comes to amps sounding different, usually the number one culprit is a level difference from amp to amp. Our ears automatically perceive level differences as being distinctive sonic signatures of the amp in question, rather than mere volume differences. Not to mention the affect of psychoacoustics, your mind will always look for a difference and create them if need be to justify the point or opinion. It is undeniable that the Mac amp is an excellent unit, one that I would certainly not mind owning.

As for their speakers, if they sound better to you, that is all that matters, buy what you want to live with on a daily basis. You'd be doing yourself a great favor to hear them in a car, mounted off axis (I assume you'll be placing them in the stock door locations) rather than a kick panel, as the response characteristics will be very different from location to location. I'm sure a shop that sells such a high end line is bound to have a demo vehicle or an employee's with them in it.

I don't know what the Macs sell for, but you may be interested in checking into these:

Focal Utopia line (built in-house and used in sister comany JM Labs speakers, ie the famous Grand Utopia) at Focal's Flagship Utopia Line or the Poly Kevlar line at Focal Poly-Kev line

Dynaudio's speakers, also built in house and used in more high end home applications than I could possibly name: Dynaudio Car Audio Home Page

Morel Acoustics drivers at: Morel Car Home Page

The Pioneer Premeir line has a couple of really impressive separates, the Premium Reference Series. I've heard these and they are excellent. Designed by Pioneer's TAD division, I do believe. They're at: Pioneer Premium's

A respected dealer for higher end equipment online with a lot to browse through including the new Rainbow speakers can be found at www.ampman.com .

All of these companies make their livings designing and engineering some of the highest end drivers available today, so you can count on the fact that you will most certainly get what you pay for.

 

[carrerarod]

The McIntosh speaker line is absolutely nothing spectacular from the standpoint of design and engineering. Keep in mind that I'm not saying they don't sound good or don't perform well, just that they don't live up to the same reputation of the amps. Check out Dynaudio, Focal, Morel, Peerless, MB Quart's (sadly owned by Rockford Fosgate now) Q-series, if you want something that is undeniably high end and will perform beyond just about anything else you can buy from a normal dealer.

I would personally add CDT and A/D/S to that list and IMHO, CDT being superior to A/D/S as far as high-end speakers go.

At least to my ears: CDT in my vette & A/D/S in my Porsche...

 

[sreidvt]

DS and Rod, thanks for the links and suggestions. I'm going to research these speakers and find out where I can do some test listening. That should be fun.

In case anyone's interested (or picks up this thread on a search looking for Mcintosh info) the company I ordered the amp from is Audio Classics (see http://www.audioclassics.com/descr.php3?descr=Car+Stereo). They're located near the Mcintosh factory and seem to have a good working relationship with them. The unit I bought is at the factory right now being refurbushed and I should have it in about two weeks (during which I can do some speaker shopping).

Cheers,

 

[sreidvt]

From the reading I'm doing (can't go listen to anything today) I'm getting very interested in the Focals (Utopias, but also the others) and the Dynaudios. Found a Dynaudio car stereo dealer 1/2 hr. away and a Focal dealer 1.5 hrs. away and so will do some test listening this weekend. I live in very rural southeastern VT where there aren't a lot of stores of any kind.

 

[sreidvt]

By the way DS....

You mentioned not just slapping the speakers into the door panels. I should probably follow up further on that. Other than dynamatting the panel and using a heavier gauge wire, what else should I be doing?

I usually mount tweeters up in the door sail panels but maybe that's not the best idea for staging. Suggestions? What have the rest of you folks done?

 

[zimmthumps]

Make sure to mount the door speakers in baffles or housings to protect from rainwater. I switched out my speakers the night after a rain, and they were pretty wet. Most stereo shops should have either plastic or foam housings. They also are supposed to improve sound quality.

 

[bing111]

HI
Owning a McIntosh home theater system I know the quality of the company and its products. Simply the best. I did have the McIntosh components in a Wrangler (!!) and it did make quite a difference in a not so friendly environment. Trying to find McIntosh seperates and amps now are pretty hard......if my info is correct, they stopped production about 2-3 years ago. They are still considered top of the line though. I have Orion HCCA 6.5 components in all the doors now and the sound of these speakers is nothing short of phenominal. They are virtually the same as A/D/S components which they are part of the same parent company and are made in the same plant. Alas, these are no longer in production and are kinda hard to locate but if the price is right, I would highly suggest hearing them. One thing is that dynamat is mandatory for these speakers....the doors just rattle to no end without it and the bass is much, much tighter. You cant believe the difference dynamat makes for any high quality driver...

 

[zimmthumps]

Does anyone have much experience with those kick panels. Don't you loose considerable floorspace?
I've been in 1 vehicle that had them, and I don't think they're worth loosing the foot-room.
Maybe it's just me and my size 15's...

 

[sreidvt]

Thanks for the advice. ?I was surprised to get an e-mail from UPS today saying that my MC250 Mac amp was shipped out and is due here tomorrow. ?I've thought about the Q-forms but don't want to give up the foot space, especially since I do a lot of long distance driving. ?For staging, I imagine the stock tweeter location (close to the woofer and directly above it vertically) is a good one for imaging and I suppose I should stay with that. ?(What do you think DS?) ? I will definitely use the dynamat and will do some searchs through this forum to find pictures of/comments about how and where others have installed it. ?I'll look in to the baffles (which I've considered before). ?Does anyone know if the reduced volume of the baffles hurt driver performance in any way? ?Thanks.

 

[carrerarod]

Does anyone have much experience with those kick panels. ?Don't you loose considerable floorspace?
I've been in 1 vehicle that had them, and I don't think they're worth loosing the foot-room.
Maybe it's just me and my size 15's...

they are made of cheap plastic and I personally would not add them to my vehicle...they look ok on the web, in person...

 

[carrerarod]

For staging, I imagine the stock tweeter location (close to the woofer and directly above it vertically) is a good one for imaging and I suppose I should stay with that. ?(What do you think DS?) ? I will definitely use the dynamat and will do some searchs through this forum to find pictures of/comments about how and where others have installed it. ?I'll look in to the baffles (which I've considered before). ?Does anyone know if the reduced volume of the baffles hurt driver performance in any way? ?Thanks.

1- tweeter. I am not DS but many high-end speakers allows you adjusting the position of the tweeter. You should adjust it based on how you sit in the vehicle. You may also want to play with delays since the highs from the left side will hit your ears before the right.

2- if money is not object, dynamat the whole door and the whole floor baords. not only does it help reduce road noise and keeps the msuic focused forward into the cab, it will also reduce heat coming into the cab. I just gutted my new corvette. Also consider accumat as a replacement for dynamat. i have both in different locations of my vette. There is a cheaper alternative called brown bread or something. i have a link if you are intersted.

3- baffles are a must. period. they do not in my opinion have a negative impact on sound.

 

[sreidvt]

Hey C-Rod, nice coincidence of timing...I've just been looking over your fantastic collection of pictures to get a visual sense of what I should do. Thanks very much for documenting things so carefully. I will use the baffles and plan on dynamatting all four doors (and yes, would love to see links for the cheaper alternates if they work as well.

I've always aimed the tweeters in my other installation but usually put them in the sail panels (which I now realize was a mistake). Clearly, this is going to end up being a much more thorough install than I've done in the past. I just keep getting in deeper and I love taking things apart and playing around (usually they go back together pretty well in the end).

Tell me more about "play with the delays"

Thanks,

 

[carrerarod]

Hey C-Rod, nice coincidence of timing...I've just been looking over your fantastic collection of pictures to get a visual sense of what I should do. ?Thanks very much for documenting things so carefully. ?I will use the baffles and plan on dynamatting all four doors (and yes, would love to see links for the cheaper alternates if they work as well.

the pictures are a little old. sorry for the quality.

baffles are like $3 each or something. worth it.

here is the cheaper dynamat/accumat stuff

 

[sreidvt]

The pictures look great, I'm working my way through "Complete Audio Install" Parts 1 - 4 and picking up good info.

 

[DS]

sreidvt: The brown bread is an excellent damping material, cheaper than Dynamat and others, just as effective, and also stickier than most without need for a heat gun.

As for the speaker mounting position, it just takes experimentation. There are a few general rules regarding audio in cars: Keeping drivers near one another will help eliminate phase shift problems. Getting pathlengths as equal as possible will yeild the best imaging.

However, I have seen examples of cars that break both of these rules and sound extraordinary. The kickpanel mounting scheme is utilized to help eliminate the distance difference from the driver side and passenger side speakers, thus helping to equalize the arrival times of waves allowing your brain to "see" a centered image with heigth, width and depth. However, I have noticed that the Q-form panel does not work extremely well in full sized GMC trucks. Also, the drivers side always has more reflections, due to a steering column in the way. The tall and wide center console and wide seating arrangement don't help any either. Also, as Crod pointed out they are cheap, and will need fiberglass reinforcement, and preferably sealing on the inside to create a small enclosure to totally eliminate the front and back waves from causing any cancellation problems.

Oddly, the factory positions seem to provide a good image on many of my favorite tracks, although i've not listened to any discs dedicated to imaging tests; I'll do it tommorrow on my commute to work and post results. The tweeter in the A-pillar isn't a bad idea, I'm doing it with my ribbon mid/tweets, and reflected sound will be plentiful, which is generally bad. However, I'll be using the contour of the windshield as a waveguide, finding the proper angles with my FFT and then ears.

I'll post some more on this after I test the factory system for imaging and staging in the morning.

 

[sreidvt]

Cool. ?I'll go with the Brown Bread as RocknZ & C-Rod suggested. ?I take it that speaker location, damping material and larger speaker wire are the three things I'll need to address for a good speaker install. ?Curious to hear your feedback on imaging from the stock locations. ?Q-forms aren't something I'm considering. ?My challenge seems to be finding dealers in my part of the world that carry the higher end speakers. ?It turns out that the local (ish) Dynaudio dealer doesn't stock them. ?I can get to a stocking (demo area) Focal dealer and will try that on Saturday if time allows. ?Otherwise I'm still hunting around for dealers where I can test listen. ?Amp should be here today so I'm itching to start installing this weekend if I find the right speakers.

S

 

[sreidvt]

C-Rod, just now looking into the CDT speaker web site. These seem to be contenders as well. Now the challenge, again, seems to be finding a dealer nearby where I can hear them.

 

[carrerarod]

C-Rod, just now looking into the CDT speaker web site. ?These seem to be contenders as well. ?Now the challenge, again, seems to be finding a dealer nearby where I can hear them.

CDT's are sweet. I got the Euro's in the vette. These aare probably overkill for the AV (almost $1,000/pair) unless you doing a show truck. let me know and I can hook you up.

 

[sreidvt]

Hi C-Rod

...that's the thing, TheZeb.com is selling ES-620 for $450/pair. How 'bout that? They're an authorized dealer and are doing a promo in conjunction with CDT (who want to get these speakers out in front of ears). That strikes me as a lot of speaker for $450. The HD-62 speakers, no slouches themselves I read, are $360.

http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/CDT_Audio_Components.html


As for overkill. I know what you mean but I think the Avalanche is a pretty good rolling listening room, fairly quiet (and will be quieter still after the brown bread), comfortable. I do a lot of long-distance travel and spend much more time listening to music in my vehicle than in my home. For that reason, I'm putting more effort into the AV sound system than I've ever put into any other vehicle or home system. I had a 1999 Suburban that was a good listening room too but I left it bone stock (audio-wise) and often regretted that.

 

[carrerarod]

Hi C-Rod

...that's the thing, TheZeb.com is selling ES-620 for $450/pair. ?How 'bout that? ?They're an authorized dealer and are doing a promo in conjunction with CDT (who want to get these speakers out in front of ears). ?That strikes me as a lot of speaker for $450. ?The HD-62 speakers, no slouches themselves I read, are $360.

http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/CDT_Audio_Components.html


As for overkill. ?I know what you mean but I think the Avalanche is a pretty good rolling listening room, fairly quiet (and will be quieter still after the brown bread), comfortable. ?I do a lot of long-distance travel and spend much more time listening to music in my vehicle than in my home. ?For that reason, I'm putting more effort into the AV sound system than I've ever put into any other vehicle or home system. ?I had a 1999 Suburban that was a good listening room too but I left it bone stock (audio-wise) and often regretted that.

That's a sweet deal. the thing about CDT's is that the louder you play them the better they sound. Make sure you get a big enough amp to send a lot of juice to them. I got the ES-643's in my vette and they simply blow me away!