Bob Lutz Says Quality Is Better Than Perceived

[MagicMtnDan]

And based on my experience with my 2003 Av, I agree! I am very pleasantly surprised at the initial quality of my Chevy Av 2500 4x4.

Here's the story according to The Car Connection...

GM North America chief and car czar Bob Lutz discussed with reporters his frustration that GM is not being given credit for quality gains, and that the media still separates the industry according to domestics and imports. ?It?s irrelevant,? said Lutz.

Lutz?s frustration was backed up by charts that showed a dramatic disparity between GM?s actual quality, as ranked by J.D. Power and Associates, and its perceived quality in the minds of consumers.

GM showed, for example, that Chevrolet?s actual quality is more than twice what consumers perceive it to be, while Volkswagen?s actual quality is less than half of what it is measured to be by Power, according to GM's presentation. Pontiac's perceived quality was almost half of what its actual quality is as well.

GM moved into the number three position in the Power Initial Quality Survey, behind Toyota and Honda, and ahead of Nissan, DaimlerChrysler, Ford and Volkswagen.

Last week, GM won seven new recommendations from Consumer Reports.

?I think you are seeing the beginning of the end of clear-cut domination of imports over domestic brands,? said Lutz.

Lutz said November sales were a little below expectations so far. But GM sales analyst Paul Ballew said he was sticking with his projection of a 16 million units annualized rate for the month.

 

[NJAV]

I disagree with the fact that many feel that domestics tend to fall behind the imports on quality...this to me is just an old wives tale brought upon throughout the years.....I also tend to believe and more so feel the quality present with the current line of GM products....the appeal is there and over time the sales figures will show this...

 

[zimmthumps]

I disagree with the fact that many feel that domestics tend to fall behind the imports on quality...this to me is just an old wives tale brought upon throughout the years.....I also tend to believe and more so feel the quality present with the current line of GM products....the appeal is there and over time the sales figures will show this...

In the yearly business review meettings we would have at GM Lordstown (J body plant - cav & sunfire), there was a lot of talk concerning quality.
In regaurds to small car production we were allways shooting to get in-line with Honda & Toyota. They both produced their small cars in about 3/4 of the time it takes GM, and have us beat quite a bit in defects per 100 units.

 

[steelheadchaser]

Zimm, do you happen to know what the defects/100 units numbers were for Chev, Honda and Toyota?

 

[02Avalanche]

I disagree with the fact that many feel that domestics tend to fall behind the imports on quality...this to me is just an old wives tale brought upon throughout the years.....

I don't think it had anything to do with (Old Wise Tales). ?I have owned several of both and the imports were just plan better, and as a result have dominated the market in quality and reliability. ?This is not just my opinion it is backed by the defects per 100 units as outlined by ZimmsAV. ?Most of this disparity was the result of the US automakers focusing on comfort, styling and performance while the Imports were focused on quality and reliability. ?I do agree that the playing field has gotten a lot closer.

 

[midlifecrisis]

The bottom line is that I'd rather drive a more comfortable vehicle with better performance, even if it means I have to deal with a few quality issues here and there. I am not anti-import for economic or political reasons. But I see my relatives buying nothing but boring Camrys that inspire nothing. If I'm shelling out $20-$40K for a vehicle that I'll drive for several years, I want something that is functional, performs well and grabs people's attention. My Av and Pontiac Grand Am GT do exactly that.

BTW - I haven't had the Av back to the dealer during the first 8K miles and I haven't had the Grand Am back to the dealer since the warranty ran out 20K miles ago!

 

[tpseabird]

perceived quality in the minds of consumers.

Talk about hitting the nail on the head!

I've personally owned both and I'll put my money on American made any day of the week.

TP

 

[gojira-san]

Yeah there was an article in the Wall St. Journal recently about how the JD Power surveys are showing how the foreign (particularly European) brands are slipping in quality, but that there is that perception vs. reality thing going on.

The AV is my first non-Toyota truck. I had been wary about going back to a Chevy because of a horrible experience I had with a 1st year Cavalier - I know, pretty silly because it is so long in the past now! (I had a similar experience with a then new '78 Honda Accord and have never owned another Honda car either - just to give some balance here )

I have been pretty critical about checking the vehicle over and have been really impressed with the build quality. I would say the build quality is as good as the 2000 Tundra I traded or my wife's 2002 Camry. Even my wife was impressed with the way it looks and rides (she has owned Toyotas since the 70s).

I'll tell you what I think in a couple of months after the new wears off but I am impressed so far!

 

[TXAVy]

I will check stats and weigh those in when making a decision, but most of the time, what I experience to be the case weighs at least as heavily in my mind as any stats that I read for a couple reasons.

"Figures Lie and Lyers Figure". Any statistician can tell you that there are a million ways to spin the results of even straight-forward stats to help them say what you want them to.

When I look at the old cars on the road today, what do I see? American, american and more american cars. Sure, more American cars were sold here then, but there should be at least SOME foreign cars out there.

There are a few Mercedes and BMWs driving around, but the majority of those I see smoke like a chimney (burning oil or water or both). Jaguar is a beautiful car, but almost anyone who's owned one over the last 20 years will tell you they spend more time in the shop than on the road. And what about Japanese cars? I dunno, I hardly ever see any old Japanese cars on the road at all. Perhaps they have better "initial quality" but then everything breaks at the same time and the car goes immediately to the graveyard? I would wonder if they perhaps get shipped to Mexico but I know that's not true. Mexico is full of Volkswagens!

Is it because owners of American cars are more willing to spend money to keep their car in good running order? Is it because old Japanese cars are so inconspiquous that you don't even notice them on the road? Or is it because all the quality hooplah was nothing more than that, and the recent increase in American car quality has only served to make them better than they already were?

And please do me a favor and don't respond to this thread with the ol' "Well my cousin's friend's uncle has a BMW and it's just fine". Any trend will have it's exceptions and just because you know of one or two that break the trend does not make them all that way. I used to like BMW and Mercedes just fine, until I lived in Silicon Valley for a few years where there is one on every street corner and the vast majority of them are a smoking mess.

 

[MagicMtnDan]

As I said, I'm very happy so far with the initial quality of my 2003 Av. ?In fact, I'm surprised it's so good. ?I came to the Av from an awesome vehicle, a 1998 Toyota Land Cruiser and it was bulletproof while I had it.

I've always preferred foreign cars to domestic and while I'm softening my position on that I still want to see it (better domestic vehicle quality across the board) to believe it. ?

Because I'm a "car nut" many people ask me about what to buy, which one is better, etc. ?Here's what I tell most everyone:

I continue to prefer foreign over domestic cars. ?And if you're going to buy a used car don't buy anything but Toyota or Honda (I've seen MANY of them go well over 200,000 miles with nothing more than an oil change). ?A used German car (in my opinion) will cost you more to maintain than most any other used car. ?And the two best manufacturers of vehicles in the world are (in terms of quality and reliability - again, in my opinion) Toyota and Honda. ?No other company does it like those two.

 

[TXAVy]

And the two best manufacturers of vehicles in the world are (in terms of quality and reliability - again, in my opinion) Toyota and Honda. ?No other company does it like those two.

So where are all the old Toyotas and Hondas? I will say that Honda makes a great Motorcycle, that's for sure. CBR954RR (The RR stands for Rar RAAR!!!) I hear equally good stuff about their Motocross bikes.

There are lots of VWs that do several hundred thousand miles too, but most of 'em are Bugs. Heck, I think there are a couple bugs recorded over a Million miles if I recall.

 

[Blueruck]

I have to give my .02

I traded in a Nissan for the AV - I bought the Nissan used and only had to change the oil and tires.

Now the AV on the other hand has been in the shop for trashed front diff, steering shaft not lubed, damaged spare, trashed transfer case, torn bed cover, h20 in the fog's.

If I damage something playing, I don't have GM fix it. All of the above items were non 4x4ing related.

I love my AV, but I have taken it to the shop a dozen times in 26K miles when the Nissan hadn't been to the shop once in 26K (except oil changes which I don't count)

At a Macro level Lutz is right at a Micro level I disagree - humm I got a GM customer sat survey in the mail today - think I need to note my problems

 

[Avrunner]

I am Chinese. so naturally, I should be supporting imports. Nope.

My opinion is that neither is better. Japanese made ones tend to last a long time and they know how to make space and room out of no where. I mean, they cna make cubby holes here and there, it's just amazing.

BUT, American cars give me a lot better feeling. Its better in comfort and the such. It depends on what you want.

 

[ColoradoAV]

A dozen times ? Ours has only been in twice for problems. Once it was for a blown out shock (which I think was a service issue anyway because it never did that until the last tire rotation ) and a TSB on the tailgate handle (which was not repaired properly so it will have to go back in again ).

The Avalanche is a VERY high quality vehicle in my mind but I think that ours was put together in somewhat of a hurry at least with everything in the bed . That explains the midgate leaking because I think that some weather stripping could be longer so there are little gaps.

I stand by my statement that the Avalanche has been by far the most reliable and overall best vehicle we have ever owned. The AV is great and I think American cars are making BIG gains and I think they are so much better than the imports.

 

[zimmthumps]

Zimm, do you happen to know what the defects/100 units numbers were for Chev, Honda and Toyota?

Ours (Cavalier) was around 110, and I believe Toyota was the lowest with below 80. And they take about 6 hours less to build there small cars.
I don't remember Honda numbers.

 

[NJAV]

The imports I agree have had a better track record as far as reliability...I'm willing to compromise with both...heck my wifes Vw...has this mystery brake problem that the dealership is still unable to fix.....don't what the deal is with that....I think it's more a customer relations issue than actual manu defect....bottom line is I'm very happy with my domestic....

 

[TXAVy]

I have to give my .02

I traded in a Nissan for the AV - I bought the Nissan used and only had to change the oil and tires.

I wouldn't refute argue your experience, from your point of view one is clearly less trouble than the other. But keep in mind that the Nissan may have had minor problems when new too, which were fixed by the original owner.

There are a lot of cars out there that once battened down and maintained regularly will run forever. The old Chevy 350 will run over 200,000 miles if you take good care of it. It's one of the most dependable engines I've ever had the experience to own.

 

[Blueruck]

There are a lot of cars out there that once battened down and maintained regularly will run forever.

TXAVy
Very good point - I have this hope for my beloved AV - I just hope after I hit 36K it doesn't become a repair $ pit. Now a Mod $ pit is different

 

[steelheadchaser]

I have found my Av to be amazingly trouble free considering it is the first model year. A lot of pitfalls were avoided because many of its components are already in the GM parts bin. I usually would avoid a new model in it's infancy but didn't feel this way with the Av.

 

[jstrickl]

The only issue I have had so far is the oil-smoking TSB which has been resolved. Prior to the Av I had a 99 Expedition XLT and it was an incredibly solid and reliable rig albeit a Ford, my first Ford at that! It had one problem in it's 35k miles in my garage. The upper radiator hose started leaking at the top fitting and was shorting out the front-left spark plug. Aside from that, it never went in for anything other than scheduled maintenance.

So far my Av is on par to be as reliable!

Jamie

 

[zeeya2000]

Man, this one can bounce in alot of directions
I love my AV, and my wife drives one of the new style Nissan Altimas. Great car, but the sports suspension and high speed tires make it ride worse than the AV and is has more road noise even with the 70 series flowmaster on the AV.
We have been through 2 Bonnevilles and one Grand prix (the new style) when it came out and only had it 3 months, lost some money on it, but paint was peeling and passenger door would pop partially open when cornering. 96 Impala SS was fun to drive, but just did not have the quality. Caprice with an LT-1 and 17" tires and a little better suspension. Kept it only 1 year and went back to a truck.
I BELIEVE IN CHEVY TRUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The car side has not impressed me
I am fixing to have to buy my 15 year old daughter a car and am stuck with that feeling of hmmmmmmmm lets try to find a low mileage accord or prelude....

 

[EarthQuake]

I thought I'd chime in on this too and discuss another perspective. ?When I think quality, I don't always think about how many times things need to be fixed.
I put a lot of stock in the interior of the vehicle. ?What I'm not really all that crazy about in American vehicles is all the interior plastic. ?For instance the dash in our AV's. ?I feel like the pressed hard enough with my thumb I'd shatter a hole in the dash, it just feels brittle and hollow. ?There have been many comments of the quality of the leather on the seats. ?On our 2002's, why put such a cheap looking bowtie patch on our seats? ?Quality would have meant actually embroidering the seat(sp?). ?The insturment clusters are pretty dull and lifeless. ?I was out looking at the new Nissan 350Z and I think they've got a quality looking cockpit. ?And you might say that's apples and oranges. ?Those cars are no more expensive than our AV's, anywhere between $27k and $38k. ?Look at the steering wheel, the guages, the climate control, the seats! ?The use of materials other than plastic and vinal are OK. ?Wood, be it real or fake, breaks up the plastic. ?I'm becoming partial to steel or aluminum on the dash and leather isn't limited to seating surfaces. ?Don't get me wrong these don't have to be standard but maybe options. ?You spend more time sitting in your car than you do looking at it from the outside. ?Although some of us that's not necessarily true. ?And we dress to impress too, so the outside is important. ?But there are alot of negative comments on exterior things like our cladding...it looks cheap. ?Never mind how functional it really is. ?If having painted cladding were an option, at least the people who thought it looked cheap could have an option.
I like my truck a lot. ?I bought it because I thought it was so practical and it fit my needs. ?If there had been another truck built by Nissan, Toyota, ect. that might be parked in my driveway. ?Generally I think we've got a great truck but I think the General could have not taken so many shortcuts.
I'm waiting for someone to say, "you should have just bought an EXT". The thought occurred to me, but I'd be so emberrassed taking that to Home Depot and having mulch loaded in the back.
my $.02

 

[olsontru]

Everyone that has posted relates a valid point.
We have all had the "when new" problems. Fortunately the AV has had less than most.
I have owned big and small German imports and have been generally satisfied with all. Excepting the VW diesel PU which seemed to shake itself to pieces. Of course the Olds diesel was crummy too.
Had one Toyota PU in the family it was old and tired and was constantly needing repair.
My thought is that in the mid to late 70s the ricers outdid our domestics in quality and performance. I think those must have been our first years of "going plastic" and we did a pitiful job with it. It literally dried out or melted and failed. Failed being the key word.
Since then, we have done much better and I consider the new domestics on an equal with most any import.
(Yugo not included).

I had a KIA Optima as a rental car in WV with all of the hills (mountains) and it performed admirably. Held the road good, handled like a MB etc. Downside, it was just too small.
To each his own and I think I've found mine, I have never owned a car/truck that handled any better or was anymore comfortable than the Avalanche. Plus we have all that storage/hauling space. In all, a darn nice car and a practical truck.

 

[NJAV]

I believe that nothing in this world is perfect..in some way there is always going to be something I would have liked to change about certain interior appointments....I agree the dash does seem rather fragile for a truck I suppose..but that's the way it goes I guess.....I too have seen a 350z interior and boy I was impressed....although I can see it seeming "busy" at certain times.....nonetheless an attractive package for a reasonable price....

 

[KeninPa]

BETTER ? ? YES and NO !

As a quality professional for the past 30 years (military, nuclear power, military again, automotive in the mid 90s, and now utilities), I thought I would make a few comments. ?

The quality is as good as the Companys Management wants it to be. ?They usually dont focuses on Manufacturing Quality unless they have too. ?From 76 through 84, Detroit did not make a car that I wanted to be seen in, let alone buy. ?So I kept buying older American cars.

The foreign cars at that time were superior for two reasons. ?One, most importers only sent in their premium exports. ?Two, the smaller cheaper import cars of the time were OK, which was a lot better than the Pinto and Vegas coming out of Detroit.

Since the mid 80s Detroit has improved and in some cases passed some imports. ?In fact, American plants now produce the Toyotas (Tenn), and Hondas (Ohio), and BMW Series 3 (South Carolina), while our Beloved AV is made in Mexico. ?My BMW Z3 has a higher US content than my AV WOW.

Bob Lutz is doing a little Self Promotion, and he should be able to do a little promotion. ?Then he should get back to work, and make cars and trucks considerably better. ?We will be watching. ?