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Calling DS and other for advice

S

sreidvt

Full Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2002
Messages
107
Location
southeastern Vermont
Hello DS and list,

I'm not sure how many remember me but I did a serious install in my 2002 Av and detailed the steps at http://www.motorcycletours.com/av/audioinstall.htm

Unfortunately, I've just traded in the Av but wondered if I might be able to ask DS (who was enormously helpful with the AV install) and the list for some advice.

The core of my system was an Eclipse head unit, McIntosh power amp and CDT Braxial speakers. I'm now in install purgatory because the CDT speakers are too deep to fit in the front door and still clear the window (I've checked carefully) and the McIntosh amp is too wide to fit into my best amp mounting location.

So, my two questions.

1) After the CDTs (which have been superb) which other 6.5" speakers would you recommend, considering that they must be no more than 2" deep from surface of mounting flange to back of magnet. My standards are now very high for auto speakers.

2) I have a 6.5" x 25" space to mount the amp (where it will be out of harm's way). Does anyone make a good amp that narrow?

Many thanks, please feel free to e-mail directly at sreid@sover.net

Sean
 
I would very highly suggest the new Focal 165K2Ps. I have the K3Ps in my front doors and the K2s in the rear. Personally I think they sound better than their top of the line Utopia series (at least until the Berillium tweeters come out)
 
enkeiavalanche said:
What did you get?
Click to expand...

We own several vehicles (personal and business) and selling the AV (which I loved) was part of a conscious plan to cut our expenses. I replaced the AV with a 1999 Isuzu Trooper. (Now before anyone starts chuckling at that <G>, I should add that I owned a 1999 Trooper before and it was an excellent vehicle - well made, solid and reliable. I say that in the context of having owned the Av, a 2000 Dodge 1-ton conversion van, a 1999 Suburban, a 1997 Jimmy, various Hondas, Toyotas, Subarus, etc.) It has the luxury package (leather, heated seats, enormous sunroof, etc.) 62,000 miles, new brakes, new tires, very good condition, $10,000. First tank (highway and backroad driving) I got 19.4 mpg.
Our previous 1999 Trooper was totalled in Quebec when a friend of mine was driving it and an elderly couple in a Honda Civic pulled onto the road directly in front of her. There was nothing she could do, she T-boned them at about 50mph and unfortunately the Honda was demolished and the couple were both killed. The Trooper and its airbag saved my friend's life so we now have a soft spot for these vehicles.

Now, none of that is to say that I won't miss the AV, which I really liked, but financially the trade worked out great. I spend much of the warm months on a BMW motorcycle but I like the Trooper just fine and will likely drive it up to about 200,000 miles. And down the road, I might buy another AV sometime.

Meanwhile, I want to figure out this new audio install. Still looking for excellent speakers with a shallow mounting depth (about 2") and a long, very narrow amp.

Cheers,

Sean

 
Thanks for the "Alpine S" suggestion but I think I've found a CDT solution (I'm very partial to them). It seems that the 5.25" CDT HD component speakers are a close match to my 6.5" HDs and they seem to be just barely shallow enough to fit with some grill modification.

Now, does anyone know of a very narrow (6.5" or less) power amp? Thanks.

Sean
 
Hey Sean,

Good to hear from you again! I wondered where you went, it's been quite a while since I've seen your name on the forums. Anyway, back on subject.......a couple of questions for you:

1. What is your budget for the new speakers and amp?

2. Are the stock locations the only place your willing to place the mid/tweeter in the new SUV?

3. Do you want to stick with a 3way system?

Thanks,
Dwain
 
Hi DS,

I hope the other members don't mind that this isn't an Avalanche install but you were so helpful during my AV install that I had to check in with you this time around.

The window tracks on the Trooper front doors bring the window fairly close to the inner door panel when the window is lowered (this is unusual). So across the width of the door, the depth clearance is very shallow. The stock 6.5" opening is actually located at the deepest part of the door. I can build out a little but there isn't much room to do that without intruding into the driver's footspace. So I just bought two HD5 (5.25") CDT drivers on EBay and plan to use them with my existing crossovers and tweeters (from the 6.5" HD Braxials). The smaller 5.25'" drivers are 1/2" shallower in depth and that should be just enough to fit (building out the mounts a bit). So the mid/high bass driver is pretty much locked in at the factory location. I have a couple options for the tweeters. CDT is big on keeping the mid and tweeter as close together as possible (hence their interest in the braxial, etc.) So my tweeter options are:

1. Mount the CDT tweeters in the stock locations (moulded mounts in the sail panels which aim the tweeters at the drivers head)

2. Mount the tweeters above the mids and angle them towards the driver.

3. Mount the tweeters above the mids (angling them towards the driver) and then add the CDT "Upstage Kit": http://www.cdtaudio.com/stagefront_upstage_systems.htm

I may do 1 or 2 now and then go to 3 later. What do you think? I'm partial to the sound of the CDTs.

As far as the amp goes, I think I may stay with the setup I used in the AV which was a McIntosh MC425 running the front speakers and the built in Eclipse amp running the rear fills. I was very happy with that combo in the Av. The McIntosh is only 50W/channel but it worked great in the Av. The only place I can fit this amp is against a wall of the cargo area (a very narrow amp would fit in the well beneath the rear seat). Since that puts it in plain site of thieves I'm considering the following crazy idea. I would mount a metal first aid box against the wall of the cargo area (having drilled air flow holes in two of the the box sides, which would become top and bottom with the vertical mount) and mount the amp inside the first aid box. Assuming airflow/cooling was OK, this should disguise the amp to someone peering through my tinted rear windows. The amp measures 10" wide by 11 1/4" long by 2 1/8" deep. I've been searching specs for first aid boxes and have gotten close to the size I need but not quite there yet. Once I get time, I'll BB the front doors.

Your thoughts, and those of other list members, would be most welcome.

Cheers,

Sean
 
Hey Sean,

Sorry it's taken so long to get a reply to you, work has had me tied down all weekend long. Anyway, that's odd about the speaker depth, I've worked on 2 or 3 Troopers over the years and I'd swear I put average depth woofers in them. Maybe it's just your year model, that is, if my memory serves me correctly, which these days, it probably doesn't.

Anyway again, as far as a good woofer for limited depth installs, check out the Kicker RMB6. It's a mere 2.25" deep and has awesome characteristics for a midbass/woofer.

That would free up your 5.25" CDT and tweeter for installing elsewhere, to run a 4way system. The mid and tweeter could be placed in the kickpanel area, minimizing the pathlength difference to create a more balanced center stage image.

However, one truth that is obvious logic, however gets dismissed by the "experts" is to "put the speakers where you want the sound to come from". The lower the frequency, the less directional the output of the speaker, for instance, a sub is omnidirectional, meaning it can be placed anywhere without being localized. The frequencies in the 400hz range are almost totally distance based as for their imaging cues. It doesn't matter how the speaker is angled and such in that area, believe it or not.

Having said this, your woofer, a low freq driver, would be in the doors, so it wouldn't cause trouble. The midrange could go in the kickpanel, to optimize its performance. The tweeter could go into the A pillar, yielding a nice high stage with its upper freq info coming from where the stage is intended.

As for the mounting of this tweeter, I've had the best luck allowing them to follow the rake of the windshield, as in their mounting angle. Also, I usually get the 6 to 8" off the dash, almost listener height, and have had excellent results. You could place the tweeter and mid together in the KP area and see how it works, and run a second set of tweeter, as you mentioned earlier, in the A pillars mounted as stated above, and should have awesome results. If you do go with the aux set of tweeters mounted high, remember to cross them over quite high, above at least 8000hz. This will allow the primary tweeter to be almost centered with the driver due to the KP mounting, but let this tweeter play those frequencies that lead you to sense the height of the soundstage.

As for an amp, my favorite amp to use in tight squeezes was the Zapco Studio line. The came in several flavors ranging from 50x2, 50x4, all the way up to a 250x2, and are only about 6" wide. I'll look around and see if I can find some others as well today also, as I know of a couple that may work, but they are quite hard to find, like the Audison David amp.

I hope I got everything in that, post any questions and I'll get on them tonight/this evening. Hey, tonight is chat night as well, so maybe we can catch each other in there. By the way, just because you don't have an Av anymore doesn't mean you can't post! We have many forum readers with other rides, so please join them!

Take care,
Dwain
 
Hi Dwain,

Once again, your advice is invaluable. I looked up the specs for the Zapco studio amps and any of them will fit into the 6.5" by 25" by 3.5" compartment located beneath the Trooper's rear seats. I'm tempted to find a Zapco and go that route but my concern is cooling. That compartment has a plastic cover which is covered with carpet. I could remove the carpet and drill vent holes in the cover but the rear seat bottom sits perhaps 1/4" above the cover. Would there be enough air circulation? The only way air can come in or out of that compartment would be through those drilled holes. The compartment volume is larger than the amp, of course, so there would be air surrounding the amp on its sides and above but I'm thinking heat might get trapped there. On the other hand, mounting in this "well" would put the amp lower than it would be if I used my other mounting option. I'm thinking lower equals cooler of course, in terms of the air circulating in the cabin. I'd love to mount there because then the amp would be protected and out of sight.

My other option is mount the Macintosh MC-425 in the cargo area. I use that cargo area a lot and so the amp would have to be mounted to the wall and resting on the little ledge found on the interior side panels. Mounting it by itself would put it out in plain sight so my thought was to mount a first aid box to disguise the amp (against the right side panel in the cargo area), drill the box in certain locations for airflow and then mount the amp inside. It would have fairly free air movement but would also be up near the window and pick up heat from the sun. It also wouldn't be as well protected as a Zapco would be in the cargo well.

Which option sounds better to you?

What time is that chat and where do I find it?

Cheers,

Sean
 
sean,

As far as ventillation, you could get a wire mesh and cover it with speaker grille fabric to replace the stock cover, and also mount a small squirrel cage fan in there to blow air across the amp.

In my last truck the amp was mounted under the drivers seat and in the summer, the amp would over heat, adding the squirrel cage fan eliminated the issue....
 
GreyAvalanche,

Thanks for the suggestion. I may add the fan if I need it. Meanwhile, I made a great discovery this evening. Since I was planning to try the Zapco amp, I decided to look again at the well underneath the rear seat to think about ventilation, wire routing, etc... I unscrewed the various screws holding the plastic liner and lid (of the well) to the body and removed it. Lo and behold the actual cavity in the body extends back under the floor another 6" or so. I tried placing the McIntosh amp in there and it fit! So I made some measurements and marks and then went to work on the plastic liner with a drill and skill saw. First I cut about a 12" by 3.5" slot in the rear of the plastic liner so that the amp could be tilted into the well and slid partly through the slot into the body cavity. Then I drilled about forty 3/8" or so holes in the lid of the well liner and then made various holes around the sides so that air could move freely below the seat, in and out of the body cavity, etc. The Trooper has a fairly thick acoustic mat mounted between the metal floor of the well and the plastic liner. What ended up as an amazing coincidence was that the mat's irregular shape extends beyond the plastic liner floor into exactly the area where the rest of the amp will sit. In other words, about 2/3 of the amp will sit on the plastic floor of the liner (bolted to it) and then the remaining 1/3 of the amp body will pass through the slot and rest directly on the acoustic mat. I may add rubber feet at the mounts to lift the amp up a little but that acoustic liner will add some good isolation from vibration, shock, etc.

So with some luck I'll be able to replicate the excellent sound system I had in the Avalanche. Eclipse head unit, McIntosh amp, CDT front speakers (now with a 5.25" driver instead of a 6.5") and probably some lower end CDT speakers for rear fill. I'll have to play with the tweeter placement a bit and see how things sound. I'll do both of the front door surfaces with Brown Bread when I get a chance and if the CDT midwoofers don't reach far down enough, I'll look into mounting two Kickers in the well under the seat (on either side of the amp) if that can work.

Thanks for all of the advice so far.

Cheers,

Sean
 
DS - still there? Have you (or anyone else on the list) had experience with the famous Clarion 9255 (old version)? I'm considering it both because of its reputed SQ and because of its ability to use the diversity antennas that came in the Trooper.

Sean
 
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