Davis Carchip!! Get One Quick!

[kwinsor]

I just got my carchip EX. It's great!! Now I can tell exactly what happens when I make a performance Mod.

The Chip plugs into the test terminal under the dash and records up to 300 hours of operational data.

RPM, THROTTLE POSITION, ENGINE LOAD, COOLANT TEMP, INTAKE MANIFOLD PRESSURE, AIR FLOW RATE, INTAKE AIR TEMP, TIMING ADVANCE, FUEL TRIM and more.

Drive the truck on a test run. remove the chip and connect it to you PC. Your PC will give you graphs that show exactly how your truck performed.

You could make a test run with your stock intake. Print out a graph of your throttle position, manifold pressure, air flow rate and fuel trim. Change to an aftermarket intake, make the same test run and now see exactly what changes your modification made on your truck.

I'm going to be able to plot supercharger boost and intake air temperature and timing advance to see how and intercooler would improve performance.

I feel like the performance blindfold has been removed!

check it out
Davis Diagnostic Tool

 

[11H]

kdubb,,,

Sounds cool if you don't have a laptop or pda... But I have a laptop, and would rather monitor 20 PID's in real time at 10 frames per second ? ? ... And be able to drive around and see what's happening... I guess if you have a problem, you could try to duplicate it, and read the module you have afterwards... How much memory does it have? vs. how much can you log onto it before you have to pull it?

I just bought autotap per the advice of my Fbody friends... I came into a nice new EFILive V5 Pro for a good price, which has all the capabilities of a Tech2, and more...

Screen Shots

EFILive V5 Pro "Features"

It can among lots-o-things I have no idea about yet, tune fuel and spark map and ltrims and has many switching capabilities, but it doesn't re-flash the pcm... Once the laptop is unplugged, the pcm reverts back to stock within 5 seconds... Basically you tune on the run with EFILive Pro, and once you have characterized your motor, environment, and driving habits, you can take it to LS1Edit, and re-flash the PCM... This process, if done by an experienced tuner, can net some healthy gains... in the 20 HP and 30 TQ range, as every motor and it's components / environment are different... I have 2 friends that know this stuff, and I will be up to speed shortly... I am guessing that once I'm up to speed on this, we will be able to possibly create a "Avalanche Onboard Tuning" section... With the good graces of the powers that be that is ... ?

In the meantime, I would check out the following diagnostic threads at LS1Tech, as these are probably "THE" best sources of info on the LS1 and it's workings...:

Good Thread

LS1 Diagnostics Section

LS1 Tech Forum


?*** Here's a guy with a C5 who has gone through the process of tuning, and making good gains:

C5 Tuning Story


11H

 

[kwinsor]

Ouch!,

Isn't that like saying, "forget the leatherman multitool, get a fully equiped Snap-On roll away"?

The carchip EX is easy to use and intuitive. Just plug it in and it can record complex sensor output. Later, in the comfort of your home you can look at a graph and see everything your engine did on your test run. The average performance guy will be able to understand the information the Carchip provides. All of us can read a yardstick, only a few can read a micrometer.

We'd all be a lot better performance mod consumers if we had an easy way to actually measure the changes the new muffler or intake made.

If more of us were able to report actual performance, good and bad, instead of perceptions we'd be a stronger group. We'd quickly learn from each others mistakes and success.

The Carchip is a very capable tool for $175, We've spent more on intakes of questionable benefit.

Bogus manufacturers will fear us.

kw

 

[Roy]

kdubb,,,

Sounds cool if you don't have a laptop or pda...
<snip>
I just bought autotap per the advice of my Fbody friends... I came into a nice new EFILive V5 Pro for a good price, which has all the capabilities of a Tech2, and more...

11H

And what kind of a price comparison are you talking about in relationship to the $175.00? Excluding, of course, the laptop.

Roy

 

[11H]

kdubb,,,

Isn't that like saying, "forget the leatherman multitool, get a fully equiped Snap-On roll away"?

NO BRO!!! ... I thought you posted the Davis as a general "feedback or FYI" ... I'm sure it's cool ! ... I was telling the thread what "I" liked in diagnostics so far, not downgrading your's by all means...

BTW, I'm sure the Davis is much better than a Leatherman TM ...

I think your post just above where you say "this will make us a stronger group" defenitely has a lot of merit... We really do need to get some hard facts instead of the SOP method... But remember, you will not be able to convince all... As motives of purchase vary from one to another... I have the same thought as you, and that's why I want to follow this through as I mentioned above... Good deal, maybe we can team up and run the new topic together eh?


Roy,,,

And what kind of a price comparison are you talking about in relationship to the $175.00?

Well, there are 4 different main AutoTap packages, and depending on your needs, prices vary... I'll list them then explain each to you...

TBYRNE MOTORSPORTS SELLS ALL KITS AND GIVES an online discount of $10 for orders over $150 up to $249.99, and a $15 discount for orders from $250 to $499.99, I will apply his discounted prices below also...


1. KAT1WG --- $179.99 --- AutoTap Hardware and AutoTap for Windows with OBD II Generic Parameters...

2. KAT1WEPT --- $264.99 --- AutoTap Hardware and AutoTap for Windows with Manufacturer's Enhanced Parameters...

3. KAT1EFISTD --- $284.99 --- AutoTap Hardware and EFILive V5 Standard...

4. KAT1EFIPRO --- $334.99 --- AutoTap Hardware and EFILive V5 Pro with bi-directional controls...


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. This is the basic AutoTap... It includes all the Federally Mandated "GENERIC" parameters requred by OBDII ... Here's the parameters it scans in real time:

AUTOTAP GENERIC PARAMETERS


2. This is the same as the "GENERIC" , but in the GM LS1 PCM, there are a lot more parameters that can be monitored than what the Fed Govt. mandates as generic minimums... They are:

AUTOTAP ENHANCED PARAMETERS


*** The 2 autotap versions above vcan be used for ANY OBDII vehicle... And the EFILive systems are only for LS1 Derivative PCM's ... Again, for this info, rather than type a gob of what it can do, I will ask you to visit the thread below... Once the page loads, scroll down and look at the 5th post... It will tell you in Lehmans terms what all the ataps do... Basically, the EFILive versions update at the rate the PCM does, it's FAST... Where the AutoTap generic, and enhanced are a lot slower frame rate... The EFILive Bi-Directional lets you actually control parts of the vehicle and PCM... It works like a Tech2, but it has a much nicer interface...

Basically, in a nutshell, the LS1 is an extremely advanced PCM, and this lets you communicate it and see what's going on in real time, and EFILive Bi-directional lets you tune for max power in your environment...

I'll try to explain how you can tune for max power...
You have the Av for example, and each truck is flashed with a pre-written program to allow for a broad range of conditions... But, the program flashed by GM has to strike a balance between emissions, driveability, and power output... Well, we all know that the best way to reduce emissions is to run the engine on the lean side ... This target air fuel ratio is 14.7 parts air, to 1 part fuel... It is recognized that this balance produces the lowest CO, HC, and NOx emissions... BUT, it is not the best ratio for power! Honestly, 14.7:1 is a pretty lean number for any motor running on Oxygenated fuel... So, the Bi-directional EFILive allows you to view and ammend fuel mapping, and spark mapping... You need to be able to "tune" your specific vehicle with 2 things: EFILive Bi, and a dyno with "wideband" to measure A/F ratios... EFILive lets you alter parameters to make max power, and get the engine in a more responsive and power making status... While also being within smog regs... This can be a tedious and consuming process, but the results of tuning YOUR own vehicle to it's max effeciency/power output, can net horsepower in the 20 to 30 range, and torqe in the 25 to 35 range...

Here's another reason to consider tuning your vehicle... Since we know that the optimum A/F ratio target is a lean 14.7:1, you might have an engine with a combination of components that runs even leaner than the target, and guys, if you have a motor pushing 15:1, some components are not gonna last too far past your warranty... Being able to tune your vehicle into a healthy condition will make max power, and do it in a healthy way... You would be surprised at how many guys with LS1 Camaros that bolt on speed parts, and find out they are running dangerously lean at certain times in the powerband... My friend had his car tuned with EFILive, and then re-flashed with LS1Edit, and he put down 21 more HP, and 30 TQ !!! ... His car feels like a different car now ! ...

To end, you need EFILive V5 Pro to view, and tune the PCM... You tune it to where you want it, and then print out the parameters on Excel... Then take the printout to a good LS1Edit tuner, and have him refash the PCM... Preferably this can all be done in one shot with a dyno close by... Now I'm not saying everyone needs tuning, but some trucks respond differently to mods, and environments... Some vehicles are on different ends of the spectrum as far as respondability, and tuning... The check engine light is there for when the PCM detects an out of federal regulation parameter occurance... The check engine light (MIL) does not tell you when you are possibly hurting your engine over time... Believe me, if you're running A/F ratios at near 15:1, and oxygenated fuel, you're not gonna get very good longevity...

*** For the 5.3 engine to be ULEV rated, it needs to be very fuel effecient... One BIG way this is able to be met, is the lean fuel mixtures they run... The 14.7:1 is optimum for emissions but not power... On a normally aspirated motor max power should be made with ratios in the 12:1-13:1 range... In this range, the motor has less tendency to detonate, and can run much more aggressive timing...

Hope this sheds some light on the tuning part of the mod spectrum... Personally, I would love to have a safer running, more powerful running engine that I know is gonna last, and not an engine that has a pcm program that's priority in writing was mainly emissions, and an ULEV certification...

11H

 

[pedr0]

kdubb

Hope this sheds some light on the tuning part of the mod spectrum... Personally, I would love to have a safer running, more powerful running engine that I know is gonna last, and not an engine that has a pcm program that's priority in writing was mainly emissions, and an ULEV certification...

11H ?

11H,

Good discussion!

If I didn't want to invest in the software and hardware to do a performance tune, I'm wondering if I could take Rocky to a speed shop and have them do what you are suggesting?

If so, would you know what a fair price would be, and would you know of any downside?

 

[11H]

pedro,,,

I will say that there are a lot of "quarterbacks on the field" ... To find a good shop will take some research... This is an area, if you're not privy to what's going on, can bite you in the butt... And if someone screwed up your tuning, it would be pretty darn hard to prove... This is not a common service that speed shops perform also... They have rules to go by as far as emissions modifications... Best thing to do, if I were you, is wait to see how I come along with the programming after I get my EFILive V5 Pro, then I'll tell you a little more then...

My plans are, to get knowledeable with the EFILive, and then go to a dyno shop and play... The my best friend is the Treasurer @ az f body assoc, and they have a tuning guru there... I will pick his brain, and see hoe simple this can be...

If you want to maybe find a good tuner now, I would go to LS1Tech.com, and ask around... You might find someone in your area who is good...

11H

 

[steelheadchaser]

Interesting topic. I would add though that an a/f ratio of 14.7 is not necessarily lean. It is actually the stoichiometric correct mixture for gasoline. In an ideal situation with perfect mixing of air and fuel, this ratio results in all the fuel being burned. Granted, alcohol added to the fuel (oxygenated) will change this as alcohol has a lower calorific value than gasoline.

Maximum power results from having excess fuel to insure that all of the oxygen in the air is consumed. The reason for the additional fuel is due to mixture distribution between the cylinders and fuel/air mixing varies and is seldom, if ever, perfect. When all of the air is involved in combustion, more heat (energy) is generated. Typically, 13.3 to 12.5:1 a/f is used for max power. However, more CO and HC is produced, which the EPA frowns on. In some applications, fuel in excess of what is need for max power is used for internal cooling of the engine.

Under high speed/no load conditions, 18:1 a/f ratios have been approached for maximum economy. This is just about the leanest mixture that can be ignited in a normal engine. Under load, mixtures leaner than stoichiometric burns hot enough to combine any free oxygen with nitrogen, creating oxides of nitrogen, which is also an undesirable by-product of combustion.

 

[11H]

steel,,,

I would add though that an a/f ratio of 14.7 is not necessarily lean.

Nice post... Hey, there is some generalism in my post about the 14.7:1 ... You are correct about it not being too lean, all other items being in a "safe" setting... But, I refer to the LS1 in particular... The oem WOT target of the oem cal. is a little too steep for oxegenated fuel and 10:1+ compression on oxegenated fuel especially in our summer heat ... MANY LS1's have been atapped, and after a few minor mods were bolted on, the WOT retard was really high... If you can at least richen the WOT A/F ratio from the oem target, you can run less retard, and make more power ... Most LS1's with oem equipment won't ping with 92 octane fuel, but change something, and .... ?

(At least this is how I remember it explained to me when my Buddy Jason had his car tuned...)

11H

 

[kwinsor]

Hi 11H,

People really look to you for advice. Can you check out the Davis Chip and see if it really can be useful for the back yard modifier?

Recognizing that it has no ability to change performance itself, can it provide meaningful feedback on the results of external modifications? Will the average backyard mechanic be able to understand the feedback?

Let's say one of us was installing a new intake. Could a before and after test run be done and tell if the intake did anything? If we monitored throttle position, air flow rate, intake air temp, and rpm would we be able to see what improvement the new intake provided?

I'm thinking that we could compare the flow rate at the same throttle opening as see if there were any improvements.

kw

 

[11H]

kdubb,,,

I will try to answer best I can with the little understanding I have so far... The Davis chip I think would do for you about what the Atap Generic does... Nice tool for basic troubleshooting... As far as judging performance differences, I don't know how it displays things, so I don't know how things could be tracked... If you did a "before" scan, then the mod, and then an "after" scan, you could probably tell how the mod changed things, but I think the only real way to estimate gains is with pulling on the dyno, and watching what happens during a dyno run vs. the feedback from the atap or davis ... But, it then depends on how fast the data capture/display is too I would think ... I'm sure there are parallels or indicators, but I'm not sure what they would be...

After your example "intake" you might see AFR increase, and IAT decrease, but does it equate to power? I don't know... ?This diagnostic thing has just so far been just conversing with people who have been part of tuning LS1's ... I haven't even dove into it yet myself... I have a general knowledge about how the bolt on mods make power, and such, but I don't have in depth knowledge about what changes, how it changes, and over how long... I'm just not to that "level" yet...
?
I have seen a few LS1 owners run EFILive Pro for tuning, and get re-flashed with LS1Edit once they know the things to adjust... They make great gains if it's done right... I've seen a solid 20HP just from tuning... And the beauty is, you can tune based on your needs... But, tuning is not learned overnight... It takes countless hours of trial and error before you realize what to look for... I know I side stepped a tad, but to answer your question, I think a shadetree mechanic CAN benefit from the basics as diagnostics goes, but depending on how much time they can devote, and energy they want to expend, tuning can go as far as EFILive Pro, and LS1Edit... Does everyone have the ability, and resources to go that far? I don't think so, but I DO think everyone that does anything beyond fluid changes should have a service manual and Atap Generic or some other device that at least can measure the OBDII generic parameters, and read DTC's ... The 3 YR/36MI only lasts so long until you either rely on yourself or someone else... So Atap is a good investment for $180 ...

I'm thinking that we could compare the flow rate at the same throttle opening as see if there were any improvements.

This might work, but you would have to look at it throughout the RPM range... And you would want to drive the vehicle for a while and measure your IAT to see how it holds... I think you could get indicators, but measuring an intake for example can be done without a tuning device... You could take vaccum readings from the box, and the inlet tube... Do a couple full throttle runs, and if the gauge reads zero, you have an optimum intake... If it reads anything over zero, then there is potential horsepower... Make sure you hold it in one gear like on a dyno...

11H

 

[kwinsor]

11H,

I'll copy some of my output to Excell and attach it to this thread so we can have a reference point.

kw