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Event Data Recovery System (Black Box)

any more on this topic should be in the link in the second post...
 
Does the AV have one?
kinda reminds me of those GPS rental car stories

Read below-it's kinda long.

Autos' black-box data turning up in courtrooms

Fri May 16, 7:04 AM ET

Deborah Sharp USA TODAY

FORT LAUDERDALE -- So-called ''black boxes,'' which have provided valuable information in determining what has caused airliners to crash, are now being used to help tell what happened in automobile accidents.

And information from the computerized devices is increasingly finding its way into civil and criminal courtrooms, where judges and juries are trying to determine who is at fault in car crashes.

Some prosecutors and defense lawyers say that the data from black boxes, which are on about 40 million cars in the USA, provide an unbiased account of accidents. But privacy advocates are raising warnings about how information from the boxes is being used.

In a trial that opened here this week, , prosecutors hope that measurements obtained from the black box on Edwin Matos' 2002 Pontiac Trans Am will tell what happened seconds before his car slammed into another one occupied by two teenage girls.

Matos, 46, is accused of driving drunk when the collision occurred on Aug. 17, 2002, in Pembroke Pines, Fla. The girls were killed. Prosecutors say that black-box evidence will show Matos was driving four times the posted speed limit of 30 mph at the time of the crash.

Matos has pleaded not guilty. His attorney, Roberto Stanziale, plans to call the black-box data into question.

Black-box recorders have been used on airplanes since the dawn of aviation. Wilbur and Orville Wright used crude machines to record basic information about flights. Starting in the jet era, flight data recorders became integral to investigating crashes.

Most drivers unaware of them

Initially, they tracked an airplane's movements so investigators could piece together an aircraft's final moments. Steady improvements have broadened the amount of information these recorders store. The latest models record thousands of measurements, from engine temperature readings to the positions of switches in the cockpit.

Surveys indicate most motorists don't know that cars have black boxes. But their use is on the rise.

Unlike the aviation models, which are required by federal law to be on aircraft, the black boxes in autos are used in safety investigations only as an afterthought. They were installed on newer-model cars to trigger air bags. Because they are not required, no exact figures exist on their use. But experts say that most U.S. automakers began installing some forms of the device in the 1990s. They have found information from the boxes valuable in product-liability lawsuits and in designing safer cars.

And, while a black box on a jet can store data on dozens of flights, the boxes on motor vehicles vary widely in how much information they record and in how accessible it is to anyone other than manufacturers. Only General Motors, and to a lesser extent, Ford, have made information from their boxes easily accessible to third parties.

The boxes are usually silver, not black, and about the size of a pack of cigarettes. Depending on their sophistication, they may constantly monitor speed, braking, seat-belt use and other factors. Recordings are made in five-second spans. What's captured is the final five seconds leading up to a crash, or to the instant the car's electronic brain determines an air bag should deploy.

Similar technology has been used to create other car data recorders, such as those that now monitor crash forces felt by NASCAR (news - web sites ) drivers. And several private firms have also begun marketing devices that can be added to vehicles to measure on-road performance of teens, taxi drivers and ambulance crews.

GM gave a California company permission in 2000 to sell a computer program to download data. Since then, information from black boxes has been showing up more frequently in accident investigations and in court:

* In January in Fort Myers, Fla., a black box caused jurors to question the prosecution's argument that John Robert Walker was speeding recklessly before a head-on crash with another vehicle. Two people died. Walker was found not guilty after a defense expert testified his truck's black box showed he was driving about 60 mph at the time -- not above 90 mph, as a witness said.

* In April, Charles Tiedje, a police officer in Arlington Heights, Ill., won a $10 million settlement for severe injuries he suffered when a hearse struck his squad car on Oct. 13, 2000. The hearse driver, Aleksandr Babayev, claimed a medical condition caused him to black out before he hit Tiedje's car. But the hearse's black box showed he had been an active driver who accelerated to 63 mph -- about 20 miles over the posted limit -- seconds before he approached the intersection, then slammed his brakes one second before impact. Tiedje's attorney, Robert Clifford, says the black-box information ''was an unbiased witness to the crash.''



Data showed air bag not at fault

One of the earliest courtroom appearances of a car's black box came after the high-profile crash that killed pro football player Jerome Brown in 1992. Brown's survivors filed a$30 million civil suit that claimed that the air bag on Brown's high-performance Corvette went off after he hit a pothole and caused him to hit a tree. Data from the black box showed the air bag deployed on impact as designed, and the survivors lost the case.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (news - web sites ) (NHTSA) has been studying black boxes and collecting public comment in a lengthy effort to determine whether to regulate their presence in Americans' vehicles. It could be months -- or years --before such a decision is made.

Meanwhile, experts say the courtroom profile of car black boxes will continue to rise. The devices are most useful in concert with more traditional investigative methods. And there are limits to their usefulness. When NHTSA studied nearly 700 crashes in which vehicles had data recorders, there were problems retrieving the data in almost 40% of the cases.

Among the glitches: Crash-related failures of car electrical systems, software problems, and investigators inadequately trained in retrieving the data.

''They're very promising,'' says Susan Ferguson, a research vice president with the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (news - web sites). But, ''they're not infallible.''

And not everyone is happy to see their use, especially in courtrooms.

''It's only partly about privacy. It's mostly about fairness,'' says Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington, D.C. ''Invariably, the information is used against the driver.''

 
YES...do a asearch for it...discussed last year about this time I think....in mods or question section
 
I don' think the AV has one, but I could be wrong. In any event, I wouldn't have any objection to having a black box in my AV as long as I have been informed prior to purchasing my AV and signed a warning stating that informantion from the black box could be used against me in court.
 
oh yes it does.

do like ygmn suggested, this has been discussed/debated/beaten to death already . . . . . .
 
cool know even JACK agrees with me ;D
 
anybody find out if the AV has on of these? http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-blackbox13.html
 
awol said:
anybody find out if the AV has on of these? http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-blackbox13.html
Please read the rest of this thread. The Avalanche does have this device.

End of debate.

-- SS
 
spf973 said:
Do our 2002 2500 Avalanche's some with the Vetronix" "EDRS?" ?I tried to get a straight answer from GM but no luck. ?If so, I'd like advice on how to erase the memory since I'd like to retain my Constitutional rights regarding self-incrimination....and ANY data generated by my truck belongs to me...not the law, not some Atty, and especially not an insurance company. ?The system is especially pernicious in that is stores the last 20 seconds or so of data immediately prior to an "event." ?Thinks like vehicle speed, TPS, Airbags off/on, seatbelts, brakes, Etc....
Thanks,
JM

Edit note: Topic edited by admin to make descriptive
I don't know if "the right to remain silent", or the protection against self incrimintation would extend to your AV. Afterall, it would be your truck snitching on you. Come to think of it, the whole issue could get ugly if it did extend to your truck. Next, it would extend to your cats, dogs & anybody you ever waved at. Where would it all stop?!

Seriously, I sorta think as long as I don't negligently kill anybody with my AV, I should be ok!
...and if I do, I deserve what I get!
 
spf973 said:
...and if I do, I deserve what I get!


I have no qualms with you feeling this way but I agree with WolfDogTom who (I believe) expressed concerns about his own vehicle providing evidence that could be used against him.

I'm no lawyer but it seems to me that we should all have the right to NOT have our vehicles report on us. It does sound a lot like self-incrimination which we have a legal right not to do.

This is a very interesting topic! Any lawyers around who can shed some light on this?
 
Magic Mtn Dan said:
This is a very interesting topic! Any lawyers around who can shed some light on this?
I'm no lawyer, and this is not my opinion, but the closing comments of the artlcle that awol linked to earlier today has an interesting opinion expressed by a lawyer:

Attorney Clifford dismisses the privacy concerns because driving --and crashes--are public.

"The privacy issues are frivolous because there cannot be any reasonable expectation of privacy in how fast you are going because other people can observe you on the road," he said. "The privacy claim is just an excuse for keeping people from knowing the truth."
Of course, this is not discussing fifth amendment rights, but it does show how at least one lawyer is approaching the situation.

Do I like the idea of having this in my truck? Not really. But I have to admit, I like the idea of being able to get that information from the vehicle of the other idiot who might plow into me.

This seems to be a topic that is rife with possibilities for good and bad exploitation.

-- SS
 
Not all of do all our driving on public property; some of us may drive on large ranches or farms....we can have accidents there that the Insurance Cos. would love to deny coverage on courtesy of the EDRS, that in effect forces us to testify against ourselves....Unlike NASCAR boxes which the TEAM can download, these units only work for the LAW, the Attys & the Insurance Cos....Seems kind fishy that if this was so wonderful, why can'y we even download our OWN data? We paid for the truck which includes the box, we paid taxes to register it, we bought our own gas (and the gas taxes) to drive it and generate the data...so why doesn't it belong to us...and again airlines are commercial carriers, I am not (uusally.)
 
spf973 said:
Not all of do all our driving on public property; some of us may drive on large ranches or farms....we can have accidents there that the Insurance Cos. would love to deny coverage on courtesy of the EDRS, that in effect forces us to testify against ourselves....Unlike NASCAR boxes which the TEAM can download, these units only work for the LAW, the Attys & the Insurance Cos....Seems kind fishy that if this was so wonderful, why can'y we even download our OWN data? We paid for the truck which includes the box, we paid taxes to register it, we bought our own gas (and the gas taxes) to drive it and generate the data...so why doesn't it belong to us...and again airlines are commercial carriers, I am not (uusally.)
But the oppsite could happen too. If your insurance tried to deny coverage claiming you were negligent, your EDRS could show otherwise. The EDRS will only show what really happened.

If I do something really stupid with my AV, should my insurance company have to pay for that? We can't have things in life so the only work in our favor, but not when we mess up.

If you act in a reasonable, prudent, and responsible fashion, the EDRS will protect you; If you don't, it will protect your victims.
 
Reminds me of the Tom Cruise movie where he goes into the future to prevent crimes. I'll never understand those that scrifice their liberty for security, for as Jefferson said, he has neither.
JM
 
spf973 said:
Reminds me of the Tom Cruise movie where he goes into the future to prevent crimes. I'll never understand those that scrifice their liberty for security, for as Jefferson said, he has neither.
JM

Welp, I guess I just don't see eluding responsibility for one's own actions as a liberty.


I guess we always have to take the bad with the good, regardless of our opinion.
 
spf973 said:
...the Insurance Cos. would love to deny coverage on courtesy of the EDRS, that in effect forces us to testify against ourselves.

Without commenting on the Pros and Cons of having this device in your vehicle, I think the analogy about using it is the same as testifying against yourself is not a good one. With the correct warrants, etc. LOTS of personal information and property can be used against you including your phone records, your bank records, your mail, heck, even your own diary. How is it that using data from the "black box" in your vehicle could be considered "testifying against yourself" when submitting your own diary or mail as evidence in a case is not?

 
I can choose if I want to keep a diary. I can choose if I want to use the phone. I can choose what I tell my friends and associates. These things are my choice!


I CAN NOT choose anything about the EDR/Black box. If not for visiting sites like this I would never have even know the thing existed. Sounds too much like George Orwell?s 1984 to me!! :7:


I wish there was a way to disable the unit. I am sure someone will figure it out eventually. If not, I do know how to erase any data if ever needed. It is wonderfull what 120V AC circuit can do to a 12V DC circuit!! >:D

Reidan
 
Reidan said:
I can choose if I want to keep a diary. I can choose if I want to use the phone. I can choose what I tell my friends and associates. These things are my choice!
Following that same line of logic, you can choose not to drive a vehicle or even just avoid vehicles that have these devices in them (now that you know which those are). Although someone not driving a car ever is about as likely today as someone never using a phone. The point was that the info in the box is no more testifying against yourself than the use of any of that other information is.

I wish there was a way to disable the unit. I am sure someone will figure it out eventually. If not, I do know how to erase any data if ever needed. It is wonderfull what 120V AC circuit can do to a 12V DC circuit!! >:D
It was also posted earlier that disconnecting your battery overnight will erase the data on the device along with the learned settings in your PCM too. That might be a little less drastic and cause less damage to your vehicle than randomly applying 120V to different contacts. Perhaps you can just unplug it now that you know where it's hidden?
 
As far as disconnecting the EDR system, if you do this manually and get into a wreck. I can almost guarentee you that the insurance company will not support your claim and you will be SOL!

I don't understand why some think this is hurtful to the driver. If you are going 115 mph and kill a couple people, then you deserve to get busted. I agree that it is kinda intrusive but it will only help you in the long run.

~bekind
 
TXAVy said:
Perhaps you can just unplug it now that you know where it's hidden?
Be careful here! That box does more than just record what you are doing at the time of an accident. It is also the brains that decides if your airbags should be deployed. Disconnect that box, and you also disable your airbags. :eek:

I do not recommend monkeying with that unit in any way.
noway.gif


-- SS
 
Reidan said:
If not for visiting sites like this I would never have even know the thing existed.

RTFM:

"Your vehicle is equipped with a crash sensing and
diagnostic module, which records information about
the frontal air bag system. The module records
information about the readiness of the system, when
the system commands air bag inflation and driver?s
safety belt usage at deployment. The module also
records speed, engine rpm, brake and throttle data."

There is no privacy interest in public conduct. Driving a vehicle on a public roadway is public conduct. Getting injured and being picked up by government rescue personnel is public conduct. Having law enforcement control and investigate an accident is public conduct.

My two cents.
 
Who said anything about public roads???? I can trash my rig on a 50,000 acre ranch, and insurance is still going to want to use my data against me.......
JM
 
ktr-sa said:
RTFM:

"Your vehicle is equipped with a crash sensing and
diagnostic module, which records information about
the frontal air bag system. The module records
information about the readiness of the system, when
the system commands air bag inflation and driver?s
safety belt usage at deployment. The module also
records speed, engine rpm, brake and throttle data."

There is no privacy interest in public conduct. Driving a vehicle on a public roadway is public conduct. Getting injured and being picked up by government rescue personnel is public conduct. Having law enforcement control and investigate an accident is public conduct.

My two cents.


Uh oh! You said, "RTFM!"

Last time I said that I got in "trouble!" :2:
 
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