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LED lamps front and rear - input requested

A

AVingInNH

SM 2003
Full Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2003
Messages
258
Location
Bremerton, WA
I am working with an LED manufacturer to develop a set of LED lamps specifically for the Av. I want to do the rear lamps and the front turn signals.

I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to how they would like them done. The inside would not have the typical reflector as it does now, but would have a true array of LEDs.

Keeping the existing red lens, I would use all red LEDs. If I can get totally clear lenses, I could convert the turn signals to use amber or yellow (the lamp would actually change color from normal red to bright amber when it blinks).

When the samples come in, I will determine which LEDs I'm going with (color, intensity, angle-wise), then put together a demo set for trial. The manufacturer says that I'll need 20-30 LEDs to match the light emitted by the 3157. I will have more than that, so I'm expecting that they will be impressively bright. Given the way people have been rear-ended here lately, I think that it's a good idea.

I had even thought about doing a "design" on the inside. The lens is "D" shaped, and I was thinking of using a similar shape for the normal lights (not the bright turn/brake) ... that is, the lights in a D
shape are lit at reduced intensity all of the time, and the entire array comes on brightly with the signals/brakes. There will also be a set turned 90 degrees so that they can be seen from the side.

What does everyone think?

Anyone know of a source for the tail light lenses (preferably without the reflector)?

As I said, I also plan to replace the front turn signals. I have yellow and amber samples coming for that, and I'll decide what to go with when I see what they're like.

-John
 
AVingInNH- what a radical idea and common to demonstrate the inventiveness of the Av members. Zowie! Cannot help on your questions but I do have LED's on all interior doors/dome/puddle lights/ glovebox/ map lights and they are intense. You idea is splendid- please keep us posted. If I run across anything I will zip it you direction. Thanks for the intense effort y'all are putting in. ;D :D :) (y) :0:
 
UPDATE

I bought a set of tail lamp assemblies on eBAY for $110, and they came in yesterday and are in excellent shape. I am waiting on the LED samples from the manufacturer.

I noticed that Caddies keep a bar of light on their LEDs lit normally, and turn the whole lamp on with the turn signal/brake. I may go the same route, making a D outline in the lamps, but I also wondered what it would look like with an X in it?

Comments?
 
Problem is the width. The lamps are taller than wide, 5/5.25 tall by 3 wide. To do a bowtie in there would just be too small, because it's the opposite geometry.

I planned to match the current facets on the reflectors, and they are in a 5Wx10H (turn) and 6Wx10H (brake) array, with the outer edges curved.

A letter A is possible. Actually, we could have an A on top and a V on the bottom ... :-X

My thought of the X is because it actually covers pretty much the whole lamp but would definitely stand out as a custom job.

The nice thing about the project is that it uses the stock lenses and SAE approved LEDs with the approved color band.

The D would look more designed for the lens.

For the front turn lamps, I want to may them animated ... in that they move from the center of the Av in the direction of the turn.
 
I have been thinking of doing something similar with the Amber DRL's since I have seen so many posts with people saying that their mounts had been melted by running the bulbs fulltime. Since LED's do not run as hot as regular incandesnt bulbs they should eliminate the problem.

You are ordering your bulbs from an LED Manufacturer, I assume that these extra bright LED's cannot be found at the local Radio Shack? I have worked with LED's before, but never in an automotive application. Also, why are these LED's only visible from one angle?

Reidan

 
Only thing is that the DRLs may not be bright enough ... notice that you can't buy LED headlights?

LEDs also reduce output with temperature rise.

ALL bulbs generate light at an angle. An LED, an electronic component , is mounted on a flat surface. The light emitted by the diode itself is 180 degrees around, but at a relatively small intensity. A lens is used above the diode to focus the light in a smaller angle, thereby increasing its intensity, like a lighthouse lens.

Take a look at the various projection angles and you'll see that the wider the beam, the lower the intensity. I am looking at 65-85 degree angles, at least the samples will be that way.

To buy them at Radio Shack would end up costing a king's ransom, for the number that I'd need. For the upper lens it's AT LEAST 46 and for the lower lens it's AT LEAST 56. I say AT LEAST because I may have to add a few to be seen from the side; I have to test the concept first. These replacements are going to be VERY bright with the brake or signal on, which is my desired effect. The LEDs also need to be able to take higher current and be able to take the vibration.

These are not LED bulbs, they are a custom array of LEDs that will need the tail lamp assemblies to be modified.

Now, if we could get a manufacturer to make replacements, perhaps I could get a custom mounting in the back made specifically for the LED assembly.

 
AVingInNH said:
Keeping the existing red lens, I would use all red LEDs. If I can get totally clear lenses, I could convert the turn signals to use amber or yellow (the lamp would actually change color from normal red to bright amber when it blinks).
Click to expand...

That would be too cool!!!
(y) :cool:
 
NW_Nick said:
That would be too cool!!!
(y) :cool:
Click to expand...

Oh, I agree. The thing is trying to get someone to one. From what I've read the companies that make them for other vehicles apparently aren't motivated enough to make them for Avalanches. :mad:
 
I want LED taillights and turn signals!

I was considering buying those circle LED lights you see on tractor-trailers nowadays, and finding a way to mount them on. But you have a better idea!
 
I'm glad that you asked.

Well, I have been making headway on this.

I bought a spare set of tail lamps off eBay, but I melted the left one trying to separate it (it was suggested that I put them in the oven at 350-400F to weaken the glue; I started at 250 but the glue didn't weaken and when I finally got to 350 .... well, let's just say that it doesn't go on the Av anymore).

Oh well, you have to break eggs to make an omelet. So I bought a heat gun and successfully took the right one apart.

I found the SAE specifications for automotive lighting systems. I have selected the LEDs that I am going to use, and found a good source at at good price (the warehouse is actually a few miles away from the office I'm working at the moment). I am working on the prototype circuitry at the moment. The LEDs that I will be using are EXTREMELY BRIGHT -- you are going to be surprised.

I am trying to get a prototype set ready for the NE GTG in October. This one won't be the real McCoy, but it will give me a way to evaluate the performance of the LEDs.

In the meantime I am learning how to mold plastic so that I can make the clear lenses myself. I also have a source for the materials, but it's not cheap. Perhaps in bulk it's less expensive. I will be making my own replacement parts -- the total replacement assembly with clear lenses, red brake LEDs and amber turn LEDs.

My only thought is what people are willing to pay? The electronics alone are going to COST about $150 per set (I can get this down with volume). I don't know what the assembly is going to cost. the interesting thing is that the clear plastic is supposed to be nearly indestructible.

I see clear lenses otherwise going for about $225 a pair -- assemblies only. Does that sound right?

Feedback is appreciated!

-John



 
Not sure why you were trying to seperate the lens from housing, The one I did about a year ago were drilled through from the back.

And, it took about 40 LEDs each. 15 lit for runners, and 25 for turn/brake.

I used 6000 mcd bulbs with 30 degree angle. Bright White.

It looked real cool. Spoke to a manuft. about it and they said there was not enough demand. (Not even making clear aftermarket lenses yet.

I say push on. They would look great. Maybe the letter A for the left and V for the right? Dare to be different.

 
openminds said:
Not sure why you were trying to seperate the lens from housing, The one I did about a year ago were drilled through from the back.

And, it took about 40 LEDs each. 15 lit for runners, and 25 for turn/brake.

I used 6000 mcd bulbs with 30 degree angle. Bright White.

It looked real cool. Spoke to a manuft. about it and they said there was not enough demand. (Not even making clear aftermarket lenses yet.

I say push on. They would look great. Maybe the letter A for the left and V for the right? Dare to be different.
Click to expand...

I see from your link that you are in sunny, snow-free southern California, and I also figure that your lens has been problem-free for a year. My concern is how long will they be problem-free, exposed to the elements? I thought about doing what you did, but I don't want to create a nightmare for myself.

Since I live in sunny (but snowy) New Hampshire, my plan is to enclose all of the electronics in the assembly, and make a plug-compatible solution. The array would match the current Av reflectors, the top being a 10-10-10-9-7 matrix and the bottom a 10-10-10-10-9-7 matrix. The odd thing is that the brake matrix is actually smaller than the turn signal one, but then with the same 3157 bulbs then the brake should technically be brighter than the turn signal. Also, the SAE standards make the brightest lights on your vehicle the DRLs and the front turn signals -- bet no one knew that. The positional lamps in the back seem to have no real minimum luminous requirement.

The total LEDs in my project will be more than what you have used. The prototype will be all red. (BTW, a combination turn/brake/positional lamp requires that there by AT LEAST 5 times the light of normal running lights, so your array of 15 and 25 doesn't conform, but I promise not to tell anyone).

The final version will be a red running set, red brake, and amber turn signal. The resulting assembly will look different than what the Av has now, and should be really, really nice. My guess is that as soon as I put these lamps on my Av, I'm going to get a lot of questions about them.

WRT manufacturers, I am surprised that they are blowing us off, when they are making lenses for a Jeep Liberty. I believe that with the wealth of human knowledge now on the internet, that you can pretty much learn how to make anything.

I also was looking at doing the A and V, with the A in the upper lens and the V in the lower one. My thought was that while they are cool, the state police will be pulling you over regularly. I will do a little detective work into what it takes to get an SAE approval and, if I can make an AV lens set that is approved, I'll go for it and imprint the SAE mark on them so that they police can't complain.

-John

 
So any update on these?

I was considering doing the same...but there is so little time...

I was thinking of going the route of drilling and gluing 30 or so straight through the back. Maybe using epoxy or hot glue to seal them in. Water shouldn't really have much effect on them. We could be talking a few amps of current at 12V and 30 LEDs though.
 
A pont of reference. Fish when he owned his Avalanche bought some LED lamps for his rear brake lights and turn signals. Incredibly these LED lights messed up his cruise control! We had to do a field swap in Oregon back to the 3157 bulbs and his cruise worked fine. We suspect it had something to do with the controller/voltage regulator or what ever it was at the base of the LED array.
 
Chief,

Your conculsion about the cruise control problem was correct. I believe that there is a thread around here somewhere that explains it all. Insufficient resistance, I believe. At any rate, there are now LED 3157's that have an additional resistor circuit to fix the problem.

So, AVingInNH, if you're still working on this, note that resistance isn't futile, it's required! You'll just need to find out how much.


MrJim
:B:
 
I have been bogged down with work for the past few months and am waiting for warmer weather before I start playing with anything on the exterior. Whatever problems there are, I'll address it.

-john
 
I bought a pair of these for my project truck..
led4.jpg


How hard could It be to mount in the avalanche tail light? I'll see how wide each of them are...
 
Avalanche tail lamp fun facts:

(1) The assembly does not come apart easily, it's heat bonded
(2) The interior is NOT perfectly flat, and is on an angle in two directions
(3) The interior is not square, and the upper lamp is narrower than the lower one
 
have you talked to the aftermarket companies that sell tail lights for the av?

i noticed that there was a thread about clears or altezzas so something along those lines... perhaps one of these companies could/would sell empty tailight housings to you.
 
I think I'd rather do the same thing and get a used set of housings to play with.

I could really have fun, but all that would be needed is a few resistors (probably pretty big ones) and perfboard (paint it black).

The biggest thing, is most LEDs take around 15-20ma. This isn't much at all, but if you need 30-40, this could add up. I guess in normal "tail light" mode, they'd probably only be burning at about half the current.

I have wanted this mod since I've owned my AV. It just happens to be one of the more difficult. First, need to get the taillamp housings, next need to order a buttload of LEDs...
 
ggates said:
The biggest thing, is most LEDs take around 15-20ma. This isn't much at all, but if you need 30-40, this could add up. I guess in normal "tail light" mode, they'd probably only be burning at about half the current.
Click to expand...
That is true... if you hook them all up in parallel. However, when running them off of 12V, you can hook several of them up in series, and run the same 15-20ma through all of them.

Check the specs on your LEDs. They typically have a forward voltage of something around 1.7 volts, sometimes they are as high as 2 or 3 volts. This depends on the LED style and color. Just make sure that when you have a bunch in series, that the total forward voltage is less than 12 volts. (If it's more, then none of them will light up.) Then, calculate your dropping resistor on the difference between the total forward voltage, and the actual truck voltage (which is really more like 14 volts.)

You'd probably end up with strings of something like 6 LEDs in series. Then you'd put several of these strings in parallel. In this case, the total current draw would be 1/6th the current of putting them all in parallel.

If you know and understand LEDs, and know how to figure out the current limiting resistor values, this should not be too tough. If you don't know what I'm talking about, and you are trying to do this, then get the help of someone who really knows this stuff. (Anyone can contact me off-line for help, this is already getting to technical for the average reader.)
nerd.gif


-- SS

PS: I just realized who I'm quoting... My, you are busy working on your truck, aren't you! I think you'd have no trouble figuring this out.
 
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