Simple question

[FlaBouy]

No flaming or fussing allowed.? Seems there are a lot of members irritated with me for not posting numbers on my truck here of late.

So I want someone to help me understand it in a manner that does not involve a lot of bickering.

I want to ask but a simple question.

Truck #1 is a blown Avalanche that has posted the following numbers that were recorded on a properly prepped track so traction is not a big issue.

77.98 mph ..........  8.452 seconds
94.91 mph...........13.589 seconds

Truck #2 is a blown Avalanche that has posted times on this site that were recorded on the street where traction was a major issue but is still considered in the recorded time.

78 mph...............  7.742 seconds
94 mph............... 10.350 seconds

Simple

Which is the faster truck?

 

[AVRider]

Ok, looking at the numbers you posted I would say #2 is the faster truck based on MPH is faster and the time to get there shorter.

Now, I understand a "Track" slip, regulated and timed. Calibrated yadda, yadda...

How do you obtain the numbers for truck #2 being it is "on the street"?

 

[DaytonaZ71]

Until the two vehicles can be run side by side, the one with the lowest ET on a timeslip from an officially sanctioned track wins.

 

[FlaBouy]

Ok, looking at the numbers you posted I would say #2 is the faster truck based on MPH is faster and the time to get there shorter.

Now, I understand a "Track" slip, regulated and timed. Calibrated yadda, yadda...

How do you obtain the numbers for truck #2 being it is "on the street"?

Truck number two is datalogged through the pass with HP TUNERS and certified to the thousanth of a second. It is also tied to a Vehicle ID # so you know the log came from a specific vehicle....

Plus the log can be rerun numerous times by anyone with HP Tuners... BTW, several members on this site have that log....

Until the two vehicles can be run side by side, the one with the lowest ET on a timeslip from an officially sanctioned track wins.

Not the question.... no one is winning here.. I asked which is the faster truck?

 

[AVRider]

Thanks for the explaination.  So yes truck #2 is the faster of the two listed.



As for winning: The fastest truck does not always win.  Whether on the track or the street.  To many varibles determine "winning a race".  You can put a Top fuel dragster next to a stock AV and the AV will have a chance (though slim) to win the race.

So hands down, truck #2 is the "faster" truck. (based on times posted)

......and I learned something new as well (about HPTuners) 

 

[FlaBouy]

Thanks for the explaination.? So yes truck #2 is the faster of the two listed.



As for winning: The fastest truck does not always win.? Whether on the track or the street.? To many varibles determine "winning a race".? You can put a Top fuel dragster next to a stock AV and the AV will have a chance (though slim) to win the race.

So hands down, truck #2 is the "faster" truck. (based on times posted)

......and I learned something new as well (about HPTuners)?

Thank you for the honest assesment. You have managed to keep the notion of winning out of the equation which proves you honestly looked at the question.

The question is simple.... people make it hard....

Which is the fastest truck....

On pinks, the fastest doesn't always win either....... a car given 10 car lengths at the starting line can beat a faster car....

 

[m02redl]

while truck #2 appears faster I'm curious as to how reaction time is figured into the logged data? 

 

[DaytonaZ71]

On reconsideration, truck number 2 clearly generated the highest number.
Since this is an internet forum and not real life, we can toss out the qualifying parameters and concentrate solely on the numbers.

 

[AVRider]

Lets throw another "hypethetical" out there:

If I drove a 1988 Yugo in Florida and the next person to post drove a 2006 Mustang Shelby GT, in Nevada. 

Who drove the faster vehicle?

Has nothing to do with a track. And both are on public streets.  Would the manufacter's times from 0-60 be enough to show "Who is driving the faster vehicle"?

This is what (I think) Rick is getting at.  The vehicle capible of having the best numbers.  Not crossing a finish line.

Just my opinion, now I'll leave this thread to those more motor literate! 

 

[MooCowWithSpots]

I'm having a brain fart, how can vehicle 1 be faster on mph but that much slower on elapsed time?

 

[DaytonaZ71]

Lets throw another "hypethetical" out there:

If I drove a 1988 Yugo in Florida and the next person to post drove a 2006 Mustang Shelby GT, in Nevada. 

Who drove the faster vehicle?

Has nothing to do with a track. And both are on public streets.  Would the manufacter's times from 0-60 be enough to show "Who is driving the faster vehicle"?

This is what (I think) Rick is getting at.  The vehicle capible of having the best numbers.  Not crossing a finish line.

Just my opinion, now I'll leave this thread to those more motor literate! 

The way the question is worded does not support your
"hypothetical" since it specifically has one truck on a track and one on a public road being timed by different devices under different conditions, they cannot be compared fairly, so I choose the one at the track-regardless of speed.
In your scenario, given two stock vehicles on the same road, my money would be on the Mustang. 
I like my friend J, will leave this to the internet racing team, enjoy your weekend.

 

[w_e_b]

Question... I don't know about the tuner as to how it works or logs..so,

1.  how does vehicle #2 determine speed, through the speedometer?

2.  Is it calibrated against anything? ie the speedometer..

3.  Is it the actual speed of the vehicle or the speed of the wheels?

Isn't the question like asking what is the correct weight of the same roll of quarters...

1. on a postage scale..
2. on a truck scale...

 

[amd1900mp]

Truck #1
77.98 mph .......... 8.452 seconds
94.91 mph...........13.589 seconds

Truck #2
78 mph............... 7.742 seconds
94 mph............... 10.350 seconds

Which is the faster truck?

Based on the definition of fast(est):
characterized by quick motion, operation, or effect: (1) : moving or able to move rapidly : SWIFT (2) : taking a comparatively short time (3) : imparting quickness of motion <a fast bowler> (4) : accomplished quickly

Truck #2 is fastest in both examples.

In all comparisons.. The data should be coming from the same source under a controlled environment. In order to present this question more fairly, without grey areas.

Todd

 

[FlaBouy]

Again you guys are making this too complicated which is the real reason for the posting.

I spent two days on another thread trying to be heard and no one is listening. If what you guys are saying is true, you cannot even compare two vehicles racing on two different tracks on two different days, since now you bring in weather conditions, track conditions, computer calibration, etc.....

For those unfamiliar with HPT, the computer is calibrated by VSS sensor signal coming off the tranny with regards to rear gear ratio and tire diameter taken into consideration.... it is actually more acurate than the speedo(that communicates through the data 2 bus). I would also submit it is as accurate or more accurate in most cases than the traps on a racetrack. So it a very valid means to compare actual vehicle speed against other know parameters.

The comparison actually handicaps Truck #2 since the road condition are so much poorer than a track.... plus I can replay the log for the non-believers so you can see the throttle percent, vehicle speed, time, timing advance, etc. etc.

You guys are also under the impression that I know nothing of a track..... ? I spend more time at tracks than most on these threads since me and my team race pro-mods.... big block and small block.... Our big block is making 4.5 second 1/8th mile passes, or was until Greg started cutting down light poles with it.....

http://www.chevyavalanchefanclub.com/cafcna/index.php/topic,73331.0.html


So let's get back to the question at hand......

Of course I could add more perspective for you guys. I know I can convince the owner of truck #2 to make a full 13.5 second pull just to get an idea of what the speed is at truck #1's 1/4 mile time.....

 

[FlaBouy]

OK, the one driving on the track with OFFICIAL timing equipment is the faster truck than the one with datalogs from their tuner or a stopwatch or counting under their breath or anything else.
No timeslip no count, maybe the hypothetical person should mail their datalogs to a track and ask the management to let others race against their piece of paper-see how that works out.

The one running a track is a racer, the one playing on the (i assume public) street is a criminal.

You sir, cannot frame the debate in my thread.... the question is simple... no racing here... no track here... just one trucks performance over time vs another trucks performance over time.... Your opinion is invalid here.... This is exactly why reasonable people cannot hold reasonable dialog because there is always one "opinion" that comes in and discounts everyone else to believe what they are saying. Then want to fight about it....

I invite you start your own thread with your opinions so the rest of us can talk without all the noise...

 

[nscr6]

Okay here is my take on this truck #2 using hp tuners to log the run if the wheels are spinning the hpt is still going to shut-off the log at a 1/4 mile which would not be an acurate 1/4 mile due to the fact that the wheels are spinning. unless hp is using gps to figure the true 1/4 in relation to the vehicle and not wheel speed.

truck #1 using true 1/4 time slip
truck #2 using hp to log 1/4 based on wheel speed gear ratio and tire size.

only way to truley measure which is faster is same track same time side by side.

 

[FlaBouy]

Okay here is my take on this truck #2 using hp tuners to log the run if the wheels are spinning the hpt is still going to shut-off the log at a 1/4 mile which would not be an acurate 1/4 mile due to the fact that the wheels are spinning. unless hp is using gps to figure the true 1/4 in relation to the vehicle and not wheel speed.

truck #1 using true 1/4 time slip
truck #2 using hp to log 1/4 based on wheel speed gear ratio and tire size.

only way to truley measure which is faster is same track same time side by side.

Every thing said there about HPTUNERs is inaccurate....

HP Tuners doesn't care about a track, 1/4 mile, 1/8th mile... all it is doing is logging parameters like vehicle speed, AFR, Timing...sort of a dyno if you will...

What is being presented is when you start the run, you can determine down to a thousanth of a second what the performance is on any number of parameters, in this case vehicle speed..... what we are looking at is both trucks launching from zero speed and seeing how long it takes each to reach a common vehicle speed. The speeds that are referenced just happen to be truck #1's 1/8th mile speed and quarter mile speed....

Both launch from zero speed and both are accurately timed to known speeds.... that simple..

Now with that said, the log showed vehicle#2 was spinning tires (high rpm vs low vehicle speed) through 30 mph, but the timer was still running against the run. Vehicle #2 still reached both speed points faster than truck #1 even though it's tires were spinning for the first few seconds of the run....

 

[amd1900mp]

FlaBouy,
Before this thread gets out of hand.. You asked a question, people have given their answers.. Why the insistant debate?

What is the answer you are looking for?

Based on your question who is fastest (time): truck #1 vs truck #2 TRUCK #2 is fastest.
Even if you are comparing speed, truck #2 still would be the answer.

Todd

 

[FlaBouy]

Question... I don't know about the tuner as to how it works or logs..so,

1.? how does vehicle #2 determine speed, through the speedometer?

2.? Is it calibrated against anything? ie the speedometer..

3.? Is it the actual speed of the vehicle or the speed of the wheels?

Isn't the question like asking what is the correct weight of the same roll of quarters...

1. on a postage scale..
2. on a truck scale...

I think I answered this above but I will leave your question like this. Pose this question to any tuner...Allen Nelson, Jesse Bubb, etc... don't care, just pick one.... they will explain what I have just tried to do in my limited way...... you can accurately compare two vehicles performance utilizing HP Tuners on the street. It uses accurate means to log in a real world enviroment that you will never get on a dyno..... Now does this equate to a known E.T... no..... and I am not representing it as such....

What I can do however is compare two trucks over known time and vehicle speed, both running on either street or track, makes no difference. The people offering up the argument that you cannot are just biased in their opinion.....

 

[FlaBouy]

FlaBouy,
Before this thread gets out of hand.. You asked a question, people have given their answers.. Why the insistant debate?

What is the answer you are looking for?

Based on your question who is fastest (time): truck #1 vs truck #2 TRUCK #2 is fastest.
Even if you are comparing speed, truck #2 still would be the answer.

Todd

The answer I am looking for has nothing to do with having a debate. It is more to try and talk about a subject that a lot of people have pre-concieved ideas about, that in reality, are incorrect. There are numerous means to look at performance without being on a track or dyno... in fact the preferred place to tune is on the street........

 

[mikenmo23]

Truck #2 is the faster truck given the data you provided.... BUT the only true way to "put your money where your mouth is" (no disrespect intended) is to line up truck #1 and truck #2 and have a go at it. am i wrong? that would surely settle any and all debates

and btw, fwiw i do believe from even the limited knowledge i have of HPT...that it is decidedly more accurate than however a track measures time due to the fact it is hooked up to the vehicle... that said... it is possible that truck #1 would have logged a faster HPT time (than the track time it ran) and therefore the trucks might be more evenly matched... but we'll never know unless 1) truck #1 logs data using HPT and/or 2) the trucks line up together at the track.

 

[amd1900mp]

Truck #2 is the faster truck given the data you provided.... BUT the only true way to "put your money where your mouth is" (no disrespect intended) is to line up truck #1 and truck #2 and have a go at it. am i wrong? that would surely settle any and all debates

Valid point..

Todd

 

[grnxnam]

Truck #2 is the faster truck given the data you provided.... BUT the only true way to "put your money where your mouth is" (no disrespect intended) is to line up truck #1 and truck #2 and have a go at it. am i wrong? that would surely settle any and all debates

Valid point..

Todd

but then what would we do to pass the time?

 

[nscr6]

With the info provided which makes no refernce to truck #2 actualey running a 1/4 truck #2 is faster. As sssMOkin said the only way to put or shut up is to line the trucks up and run.

 

[DaytonaZ71]

Truck #1 is a blown Avalanche that has posted the following numbers that were recorded on a properly prepped track so traction is not a big issue.

You sir, cannot frame the debate in my thread.... the question is simple... no racing here... no track here... t it....
I invite you start your own thread with your opinions so the rest of us can talk without all the noise...

Whatever...