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Still Confused After Researching....

rickd2000

Charter Member
Full Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2002
Messages
27
Location
Atlanta, GA
Ok, Ive been searching all of the threads here for the last few hours and still cannot come up with a consensus as to what most AV owners think. Given no restrictions as to cost, what exhaust would most of you put on the AV with these requirements:

1. No loss of torque.. I pull a 6000 lb boat in the summer and cannot lose any torque.
2. No resonance in the cab
3. Good rumble, but even better WOT sound
4. Has to be stainless steel
5. Needs to utilize factory hangers
6. I would like a single-to-dual system, no true dual because of number 1 above.
7. Good warranty

Is there a system out there that can meet all of the requirements I have listed? Ive been researching for days now and most of the info I have seen conflicts at some point, so now I just want flat out opinions.

Thanks in advance.
--Rick
 
rickd2000,,,

Wow, you don't ask for much... I would hate to take your order at Burger King... LOL

1. No loss of torque.. I pull a 6000 lb boat in the summer and cannot lose any torque.

Gibson 3" Single first, Flowmaster 70 Second...

2. No resonance in the cab

Not possible ... keep oem for no resonance ... But, Flowmaster 70 has a little, and any "TURBO" style muffler has little...

3. Good rumble, but even better WOT sound

Anything fits here ... Depends on your taste ... Flowmaster sounds the best, and DynoMax comes in second...

4. Has to be stainless steel

Corsa, Borla ... But the oem catback is aluminized, so you would be "upgrading" if you went with these...

5. Needs to utilize factory hangers

All systems that come in "kits" will do this for you ...

6. I would like a single-to-dual system, no true dual because of number 1 above.

Stick with any 3" Inlet muffler, and keep your dual outlets at 2" to 2 1/4" ... Most mufflers with a 3" inlet come with ?2 1/2" dual outs... You can't have a bolt in kit, and expect to get 2 or 2 1/4" dual outlet pipe ...

7. Good warranty

Define "Good" ... 1 year, life ?


----------------------------------------------------------------

There are good systems that will fit most of these priorities, but you can't have it all in a number one priority, you are gonna have to sacrifice, and compromise... If you would open your doors to a "custom" installed system, you will get closer to what you want... It's kinda like buying a TV dinner ... If you don't want onions with your peas, then you might not be able to buy the riblet dinner... Get what I mean? ...

I advise, since you have big requirements, and money is not an issue, I can dish you out a custom setup that will work for you ... But one thing I would highly cnsider, is if you want torque retention on bottom, and you pull that much, scrub the dual outlet idea, or you might as well stick with stock, and save your money... Or if it's sound you want, buy a nice Dynomax turbo muffler (Walker Quietflow is the best), and have it welded into the oem system...

The main thing is, you need your current torque pattern with the 6K boat ... No dual outlet system will mimick the oem system's power band (sorry) ... You could run a 2.5 inlet, and dual 1 3/4 outlets, but the truck will fall flat at high RPM's compared to the oem system... I will guarantee, if you go with a dual outlet system, no matter how well I build it for you, you WILL lose a tad of bottom end... It will be minimal, but if you are "in-tune" with your truck, you will feel it... If I had a boat like that, a dual outlet set-up would not be considered in the least on my 5.3 ... ?Besides, if it's cosmetics you're worried about, most "tuners" have realized the benefit of a single big system, and you won't be alone... Actually, dual outlets have become quite rare around here on trucks...

If I had to recommend one solitary kit to fit all your needs, I would no question, be a Gibson Single swept 3" kit in stainless...

But, there will be a little resonance, and it's a single system... But, it will fit all your other needs you mention... For pulling, a Gibson is hard to beat... I would get the aluminized version if you want to keep the materials you have now, and you'll save over $100 bucks... The muffler is what eats away, not the piping... So spending extra on piping is kinda moot...

11H
 
How about leaving it stock? That sounds like it meets all of your requirements!............. Well except #3
 
11H,

Well I tend to be somewhat of a control freak, but if Im going to spend some $$$ on this, I want to get it right the first time.

As for your custom job, Im definitely open to it so long as it meets most of the requirements. However I did have some questions from your reply:

1. Wouldnt going the 3" to 2 1/2" route keep a certain amount of backpressure to keep the low end torque curve intact?

2. Im not against just buying the mufflers and having a custom system created, but havent seen much about it on the boards or Im missing the posts during searches. What kinds of things were you thinking here?

3. If I need to stay with single outlet so be it, but if I can keep low-end torque with a split dual-out, I would like to go that way (I just like the way the dual pipes look on the AV for some reason.)

So, with that in mind, what would you recommend?

Oh, as for my BK order, Im a pretty simple guy, I just want it my way ;)

Thanks,

--Rick
 
Z66 BUTCH said:
How about leaving it stock? That sounds like it meets all of your requirements!............. Well except #3

I want a little better sound than stock provides, but Ive been toying with this idea for over a year... Ive researched off and on for a while, but now Im getting serious and want to make sure Ive researched as much as possible, as I said to 11H above, Im a bit of a control freak, but I also hate making a decision and then regretting it after hearing someone elses exhaust and then going "Man, wish I knew what that was!"

However, if I cant find something to my liking, I might just give in and stay with the stock exhaust...

--Rick
 
i was just like you...i am a perfectionist with very little money...so i looked into audio clips of muffler systems and went with a pair of flowmaster delta 40's...yes i have a true dual exhaust but i really haven't noticed a loss of lower end torque...the truck seems especially after having the exhuast for a few months to have more power...the headers and the cat converters provide back pressure for the system...and with true dual i can keep my options open for adding a supercharger later...
;) any one care to donate one
 
also...if you are thinking of changing the exhaust...you need to do it or not...that's how i approach mods for mine...i look at like this...the sooner you do mods...the longer you will have the mods...and the more enjoyment you will have out of the mods before you sell or trade the truck in...it may be tomorrow that you plan to sell or years down the road...which means a couple of days procrastinating may or may not be significant for you...but a year of sitting on the fence is too long...are you waiting to be kicked off the fence...here's a kick...no figure out which side to fall on and be done with it...by the way...i am on the fence about changing my HU...i do/don't want to change it...depending on the time of day and weather...but i've been on the fence for only a week or two..not a year
 
11H said:
rickd2000,,,

Corsa, Borla ... But the oem catback is aluminized, so you would be "upgrading" if you went with these...

11H

I hope you don't get the impression that I'm nitpicking because I'm not. I've learned a lot from your postings here.

Please clarify on your point about OEM exhaust systems being aluminized.

I have only owned new Chevrolets since 1996, but EVERY new Chev truck I've had since then a came from the factory with a stainless steel exhaust system as standard equipment.

To be sure, I just pulled out the sticker from my 03 Av and it lists as standard equipment, "stainless steel exhaust."

Do you know something that I've overlooked all these years?
 
Bisonovich,

I have been thinking about it for a year, but never really "wanted" it that bad. Now, after having a few friends with trucks that have changed their exhaust I have come to like the sound and finally decided to "fall to one side". Now I just need to decide which side, only because they dont have a boat to pull so they dont have a need to worry about loss of low end torque and loss of power.

Im thinking the Gibson is going to be the way I go, simply because after reading about the single side exhaust and how they promote it as better for towing. Now Ive also thrown into the mix a K&N FIPK Gen II for my AV as well.

If you cant see the pattern here, Im looking to improve the torque and HP while minimizing the exposure of not being able to properly tow my boat :) (which is like my only child, I dote on it) I spend every moment I can on it and not being able to get it to the lake would be a very bad thing.

Thanks,
--Rick
 
I second stock.

Second I recommend, but everyone here hates the idea, picking a muffler of your choice by listening to sound files or trucks with the muffler. Then have a fake 3 inch pipe to stick out the other side. A couple nice tips and you will have what you want (depends on muffler you pick you will get a samll to large increase in cab resonance).

Lex Luthor
 
Rick,,,

If you do a 3" inlet, and a dual outlet, and run 2" pipe, you should be ok with the bottom end... I just wouldn't go past 2.25 ... The 5.3 has low VE off-idle, and it's a fat truck... The oem system is really great for TQ from idle to about 2,000 RPM... The the oem muffler starts to build pressure fast, and the PCM for one will trim back to make an even power curve to redline... All a increased flow exhaust does for power, is allow the motor to flow max cfm at any given rpm within the limits of the PCM, and the motor's VE at a given rpm (the simplest analogy, is a pool pump... A pool pump say is designed to pump a max amount of 100 gallons per minute... With this, it needs a 1" inlet, and a 2" outlet say... If you put a big 3" inlet on it, it will not have proper head pressure to feed itself, same thing with the outlet, if you have a 3" outlet on that little pump, it will not run well... You have to match the inlet, and outlet's inner surface area to match the pump's ability... Now a little vaccum on the inlet, and a little back pressure on the outlet, will allow the pump to run more effeciently, and have great reaction time or response... In a nutshell not taking into account frictional properties and heat, this is the goal... The goal also is to create that outlet restriction as far from the motor as possible but, to retain velocity without choking at the end... It's complicated, but then again it's not... The 3" system is where frictional/heat issues are capitalized on, and better velocity is retained throughout the system... You can;t confuse a tru dual system with a single muffler dual outlet system... they are entirely different... A single into dual outlet system is pretty innefecient if you compare it to a single system... as far as friction/velocity/heat goes) ... A 1,000 cfm muffler does no more than a 700 cfm muffler on a 5.3... The Gibson is designed to make good grunt from idle to about 3800 RPM... The 5.3 makes max power at about 4800, so the Gibson is close to a perfect match... In the single swept side... But, if you plan on long tube headers, or a blower later, it's not the best choice...

The Flowmaster 70 series flows a little more than the Gibson, an I think it's probably the best choice for you... I just can't recommend their KIT because I and others have had problems with fit...

If you want to do a custom set up, with dual outs, I would get a Flowmaster 70 series, 3" Inlet, and dual outlet... run 2 1/4 pipe from the muffler... (have the shop expand the 2 1/4 to fit inside the 2 1/2 outlets of the muffler... If you do a Magnaflow or any straight through type muffler, run 2" outlets... A chambered muffler is gonna do some restricting for you and they will tolerate 2 1/4 where a straight shot muffler won't ...
NOw, if the shop is crush bending the pipe, and not mandrel bending it, you can add 1/4" to whatever I tell you here... Meaning if the shop is putting in a magnaflow, and crush bending, then you can do the 2 1/4 outs... If they are doing a Flowmaster 70, with crush bending tailpipe, you can run the 2 1/2 ... When I mention pipe size, I default to mandrel pipe where it is never crimped...

Considering your dilema, if you want a kit, do the Gibson single swept 3" in stainless or alumized ...

If you want dual outs, go custom only... If you do a straight through muffler stick with 2.0 Inch tails ... If you do a chambered muffler like a Flowmaster 70, you want to run 2 1/4" pipe... These are mandrel bent sizes...
If the shop doesn't have a mandrel bender (which I would try to find) then crimp bent pipe, you can add 1/4" to the numbers above...

But, I will say, a 3" kit will make more overall HP, and Torque ... There are dynamics at work here that are hard to explain... I have the best flowing kit available for the 5.3, and it will support a blower too... But, the muffler internals are designed to keep good back pressure normally aspirated too ...

I have the Magnaflow single 3" center in / center out 3" ... with 3" tail ... The muffler (12579) goes from 3" inlet to dual 2.5 inch pipes inside the case, and comes back out single 3" ... The exhaust hits a small smooth rounded V block at low RPM, and as exhaust gasses increase in volume and speed, and decreases in pulse width, the V block is overcome, and the muffler flows like crazy... But it does resonate inside a bit ... ?:6:

Now to answer the question about stainless factory exhaust... The part that is stainless is the Y pipe assembly that comes off the exhaust manifolds, and meets together at the Y flange where it connects at the mid pipe... The Mid pipe, muffler, and tail are aluminized ... Technically aluminized is not stainless steel, but pretty good as holding off corrosion... So it's "partially stainless" ... At least on the 99,00, 02 trucks I've had ...

11H
 
with the delta 40 flowmasters...the interior cab resonance isn't bad at all...the original flowmaster were alot worse...if i roll down my windows, or get on the accelerator hard it's easier to hear the exhaust...i forget sometimes that the exhaust is there b/c i listen to the radio alot...and it barely has to be on at all to override the exhaust sound...except for the above situations
 
Bisonovich,,,

with the delta 40 flowmasters...the interior cab resonance isn't bad at all...the original flowmaster were alot worse...if i roll down my windows, or get on the accelerator hard it's easier to hear the exhaust...i forget sometimes that the exhaust is there b/c i listen to the radio alot...and it barely has to be on at all to override the exhaust sound...except for the above situations

Interior noise I've found is different for everyone... So, what is ok for you might be too much for another person... You have the best flowing flowmasters on your truck, and being you have true duals, the turbulence is spread over two mufflers instead of one... So resonance for you is different... But true duals is a challenge to install on an av... Also, your tailpipe size is even more critical because the mufflers arent providing any backpressure on the 5.3 for you...

If you say you didn't lose bottom end from the oem system, you must be running some pretty conservative tail pipe size...

When you say the Y pipe, cats, and exhaust manifolds provide ALL the backpressure in the system, and muffler/tailpipe selection is not a big issue; on a 5.3, it will make a difference what kit and config you choose... It has to do with throttle response, and VE at low rpm... Mainly below 2,000 ... I would bet you lunch, if you put a single 3" Flowmaster 70 on there, you would feel more grunt off-idle through about 2,000rpm ... In my estimation, the only way you could run true duals, and not lose in that range woult be to run 1 3/4 to 1 7/8 Inch tailpipe... Or at best crush bent 2" ... Either that or you have a truck that happens to be configured with existing parts/tuning to have gobs down low... It is possible, but normally the 5.3 can really suffer if the exhaust is open up too much or the combination of muffler / pipe isn't selected properly ...

11H

11H
 
now i didn't mean to imply that the headers ypipe and cats provide all the backpressure...but they sure do help...i've noticed that when people do upgrades headers can add the most hp by making the exhaust alot more free flowing...and from what i'd heard from reliable sources is that mufflers are as important...esp. since when people do performance upgrades headers produce alot more hp than mufflers do...unless of course mufflers are the choke point in the exhaust system for that vehicle...

everyone rants and raves about true duals and the lost of backpressure...but i don't think it's nearly as bad as most people think...now if i upgrade my headers or take the cats out then i may have some issues with backpressure that are compounded by the exhaust
 
So much food for thought.

I was always under the impression that the main VE limiting factor for a gas engine was the position of the throttle plate (given a certain cam profile and ignition timing map).

It seems like ANY modification to air inlet or exhaust system for the sake of increasing VE would only be effective at wide open throttle (WOT). At any other throttle setting, the throttle plate itself would be the "VE limiter."

Likewise, any mod to the exhaust to improve it's performance (flow) at WOT would be null and void without a corresponding mod to the air inlet system. Again, these statements are assuming a cam profile and ignition timing map that haven't been changed.

I think the air inlet and exhaust system that came from the factory on our Av's is a "best fit" for the kind of driving that most of us do - 90% part throttle, 9% heavy throttle, 1% (or less) WOT.

Our quest for a "better," more pleasing sound now comes down to "what am I willing to pay for this?" Give up low end torque? Maybe. I paid that price couple of times. Was it worth it? Yes. At the time. Now I enjoy the silence and better all around power. Sometimes I miss the WOT performance.

I appreciate this venue for my ramblings.

I'm still considering writing a nastygram to the general about his terminology on window stickers.

I think that if the general puts "stainless steel exhaust" on my sticker, then it should mean "stainless steel exhaust system". That is how most lay truck buyers would interpret it. It should not mean that one part of my exhaust system is stainless and the rest is aluminized. I'll be checking with the Florida AG to see if that might be a little overly misleading.
 
Would you guys say its worth springing for the Stainless STeel, or is it better to save money and just get the aluminzed? $$ is not the issue, but if i could save some money then im all for it
 
Bisonovich,,,

since when people do performance upgrades headers produce alot more hp than mufflers do

I agree, but if you pick the right cat back config., the gain with both is about the same... Long tubes do well, but the new exhaust manifolds on our trucks, DO have seperate tubes at each cylinder (unlike LT1 motors or the older L98's) ... They don't however collect in the same place aftermarket headers do... The new exhaust manifolds flow better than most think... It's the pressure wave balancing in the long tube headers that gives the bulk of the gain, not really flowability ...

Bobbll,,,

Likewise, any mod to the exhaust to improve it's performance (flow) at WOT would be null and void without a corresponding mod to the air inlet system.

BTW, that is one of the best posts I have heard on the performance aspect ... Good Work man! ... We think similar ...

That is if the inlet is inadequate or innefecient... Remember, you can only increase VE up to the motor's max ability... It's always the quest for MAX POWER, but some forget that inlet, and exhaust mods "MOVE" the power curve a little... Some vehicles more than others... Vaccum, and Back-Pressure can be friend, AND enemy; it's the BALANCE that's critical...

Now, if you have a blower all bets on this theory are off ! ... You are all fortunate indeed !

Sickwidit,,,

Would you guys say its worth springing for the Stainless STeel, or is it better to save money and just get the aluminzed? $$ is not the issue, but if i could save some money then im all for it

It depends where you live... It's the muffler that usually goes first, so really, all you need is a stainless muffler... But again, it's preference...

11H
 
Ahhh, power curves....I love curves. Have you seen the curves on the Porsche? What am I saying, I'm sure you have ;D ;D

Lex Luthor
 
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