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Torque Management

gandolphxx

Charter Member
Full Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
5,750
Location
Houston, TX
From somewhere, credit to whoever.
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With the GEN III VS engine, Torque Management is a function of the PCM that reduces engine power under certain conditions, included in which, is the transmission upshifts and downshifts.

Torque Management is performed for the following reasons:

1. To prevent overstress of the powertrain components.
2. To prevent damage to the vehicle during certain abusive maneuvers.
3. To reduce engine speed when the IAC is out of the normal operating range.

The PCM monitors the following sensors and engine parameters to calculate engine output torque;

- Air/Fuel ratio
- Mass Air Flow
- Manifold Absolute Pressure
- Intake Air Temperature
- Spark Advance
- Engine Speed
- Engine Coolant Temperature
- A/C Clutch Status

The PCM monitors the torque converter status, the transmission gear ratio, and the engine speed in order to determine if torque reduction is required. The PCM retards the spark as appropriate to reduce engine torque output if torque reduction is required. The PCM. also shuts off the fuel to certain injectors to reduce the engine power In the case of an abusive manoeuvres.
Instances when engine power reduction is likely to be experienced, are:

a. During transmission upshifts and downshifts.
b. Heavy acceleration from a standing start
c. The IAC is out of the normal operating range.
d. When the driver is performing stress-inducing (abusive) maneuvers such as shifting into gear at high throttle angles or shifting the transmission from reverse to drive to create, a rocking motion. The driver is unlikely to notice the torque management actions in the first two instances.

The engine power output will be moderate at full throttle in the other two cases. The PCM calculates the amount of spark retard necessary to reduce the engine power by the desired amount. For example the PCM disables the fuel injectors for cylinders 1, 4, 6, and 7 in the case of an abusive maneuvers.
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This is the issue, it has been getting worse since '98, more and more conservative. The only cure is to "fix the chip".

The more mods you do, the more this becomes a daemon on your shoulder [or butt] >:D
 
gandolphxx said:
When the driver is performing stress-inducing (abusive) maneuvers
he, he, he, >:D >:D >:D

Do I have to take my chip to someone to have it, uh, "fixed"?

Too bad some of those young punks that are capable of hacking into NSA headquarters won't focus their deviant talents on something more productive, like altering the Chevy ECM for a more exciting ride. >:D

helmet
 
AMEN.

I was just ready to start a new thread called" Torque Management, What is it?"

Gandolpfxx is truly a wizard. You read my mind G' man. I was so thrilled to read this because now you have answered the question that has been nagging me all weekend.

Now, How do we concentrate our collective modding enthusiasm on a solution that can be safely applied to the PCM without wiping it out.?

I want to be the manager of my torque !!! >:D
 
XRover said:
AMEN.
Now, How do we concentrate our collective modding enthusiasm on a solution that can be safely applied to the PCM without wiping it out.?

I want to be the manager of my torque !!! >:D


FSC TM thread

FSC TM thread

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Oxidizer - http://www.ls1tech.com Truck Forum Director
any mod which increases torque at the sift point will effect TM. This means just about anything you do to increase power will have greater and greater TM issues. I currently am suffering a .6 deficit in the 1/4 with my current set-up due to TM. The primary contributors to the TM issues are the drivelne related mods-3 washer shift kit, pump mods, servo replacement and the TQ converter. All in all I'd do it again but would have had some programming done FIRST. For now I am simply waiting for the LS6 heads to come back from Valley Head Service(stage II preped) and to install the TR224 cam before I begin programming. It has been frustrating having programming undo the mechanical HP/TQ gains of modding. The more power you make, the more radical the TM fights back...delaying shift engagement, reducing line pressure, removing timing and even cutting fuel and holding 3000 rpm."
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Torque Managment

What are the symptoms

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Oxidizer - http://www.ls1tech.com Truck Forum Director
"Have you ever noticed how it seems the trucks fall on there face between gears?

Doesn't it feel like the tires should be barking on the 1-2 upshift?
TQM is what prevents this from happening. TQM is supposed to help extend longevity of the 4L60E trans in heavy use applications.

TQM can:
1. Retard timing between shifts
2. Delay shift solenoid engagement
3. Remove fuel from 4 of 8 cylinders

This is nothing a performance vehicle needs. As you begin to make more power the effects of TQM become more and more appearant and the effects more and more costly (performance wise.)

TQM uses a culmination of 5 sensors to determine how its going to react to "elevated tq levels." This is a 100% computer managed system and as far as I can see not removable...but can be minimized through custom programming.
The 99's have it but it is not that noicable, 2000 got a larger dose but the 01-02's are by far the most invasive. I've lost as mucha as 5 tenths in the 1/4 due to TQM phenomenon."
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This is just the starting point of the issue, more to come. >:D
 
I hear you Gandolphxx :)

It is even worse on the trucks with Fly by wire throttle bodies.. I have seen on atap that it actually pulls timing and closes the throttle body blade on the shifts.. I lose about 5 deg of timing just before my shift and it sucks with this new cam , I just put in..

I have decided that LS1 edit is the only way to go.. Going to sell the Hpp3 and do my own tuning.. I know I can get .20 more tenths with Ls1 edit over my hpp3..


Here is a link to Ls1 edit if anyone is interested..

http://www.carputing.com/

Brooke
?

 
So if I may speak frankly, it appears to me that there could only be two primary reasons for GM to go to such great lengths to incorporate torque management:

1. They are trying to offset the low structural tolerance of typically high stress parts due to the lack of quality in currently available inexpensive metals. (a 1960's 454ci would turn your 2002 drivetrain into a molten blob of slag.)
or
2. The Feds are leaning on GM to produce cars that are safer and more environmentally friendly.(less aggressive driving, street racing, high fuel consumption)

Given GM's track record, I seriously doubt that GM would be instigating TM per #2 on their own >:D, so has this been indirectly mandated or is #1 the answer?

Any other points to consider?

helmet
 
My research and novice experience suggests that it is a variant of #1.

1. The average car/truck buyer wants really smooth shifts and that requires letting the tranny slip [re-read Transgo Shift Kit FAQ's]. To do this and not over burden the transmission they drop the RPM's and torque while the transmission saunders into the next gear range. I have heard that it is .6 secs at the engine for a .3 sec transition.

2. The 4L60E is a good transmission, but a tad under built for the current 5.3 in full torque output, The 4L65E was slipped into the 6.0L trucks to help solve the problem.

3. Consumers screaming about tranny problems and drivetrain warranties has increased to the point where I am sure that someone said "protect our image and bottom line".

When all is said and done, this is not for everybody, by a long shot - just information gleaned.

My $.02 >:D
 
shafman1 said:
How much does a TransGo Kit cost for my specs? :rolleyes:

About $120 + installation - I recommend a good tranny shop, they say it is a DIY, but I am not that brave, besides I was having the tranny upgraded at the same time - make sure you get the performance one.

"Holds 1st-2nd-3rd at any RPM. Backshifts at your command. Fixes engagement/delay bang. Reduces the chance of 3-4 clutch failure"

Best bet is to call Txchange - Transgo

Don't get the "manual shift kit", it disables your automatic, and manually shifting with a steering wheel shifter is a bummer - now a console mounted Hurst would be a different matter entirely. >:D
 
I'm new to theclub, but always have looked for more out of everything i drive :C: and I found my way to torque managment ...my 1500 z 71 av has a button tow mode and it seems that it holds and shifts much more responsibly and another thing-- i wound it all the way up in 4 wheel low and it would go like 80mph... how low is low ..my old k-5s in low 4 wheel felt like the were geared down much more than the av is. I also feel the backlash clunk at low speed upshifts and hear at about 10-15 mph the tranny drop in to low coming up to red lights
 
:D: What I miss out of my 97 f-150 sc long bed was it's passion for two wheel black marks going fwd. I have the same 600 lb load in my av with twice the power and blaaaaaaaa.
Thanks for the info. I knew there was a problem.
Now how too fix it! Will adding a black box change any of this. Tow-haul for me makes a difference when towing 4000+.
 
Sorry, none of the plug in units can touch the torque management stuff, they can increase shift points and firmness, thats all. ;D
 
My research and novice experience suggests that it is a variant of #1.
Gandolphxx if that the case why not just build a better tranny? Also this is quite upsetting to me, I waited 2 months for a truck with 4.1 gears only to still have a slug off the line! I was wondering why it was a slug! Thanks for all the good info! Is there a solution to this without tearing apart the tranny? If its in the computer why cant the chip guys fix this?
 
Pagemaster said:
Gandolphxx if that the case why not just build a better tranny? Also this is quite upsetting to me, I waited 2 months for a truck with 4.1 gears only to still have a slug off the line! I was wondering why it was a slug! Thanks for all the good info! Is there a solution to this without tearing apart the tranny? If its in the computer why cant the chip guys fix this?

A number of points to consider:

1. Do you have a 1500, if so you have the 4L60E, a moderate transmission and differential, fairly matched to the 5.3L, but not overly strong. If this is the case you may want to check out Butch's rebuild comments, at the very least beef up the transmission at some point [Do not remove TM without a rebuild, your truck is too heavy for stock unit operation IMHO]

2. The dreaded TM seems to be an increasing reaction by all auto mfgr's to the need to have a transmission that lasts 100000 miles with no maintenance and only costs $200 to build [guess] and that will allow them to meet the continually changing mileage rules AND provide a ride that your mother-in-law thinks is smooth - most folks won't tolerate a "quick shift" transmission, and the 4L60E won't live through it in std slush mode.

3. If you strengthened the tranny per above then you could get the chip [PCM] fixed to do everything that the HPP3 does + reduce the aggressive TM policy that has gotten worse each year since '99 [by all accounts]

It seems to be all about materials, weight and consumer desires - my '67 GTO would spool [WOT] up in low to 90+, shift smoothly into 2nd, continue to 120+ and then slide into 3rd [OD] to 150 - 160 - cruising at 120-140 it would down shift to 2nd at WOT and then work its way back up without any complaint.

If you have a 2500 most of this applies except that the tranny is a better starting point, can be cured with a good torque converter [2600HD], new back plate, Kevlar clutches and a Transgo kit - then burn the chip, no more TM.

BUT, consider the following - I took it back to the transmission guy and asked him to test drive it after the chip fix - interesting ride. I was concerned that the slam from 1 to 2 was a tad harsh, his answer, as he had it at WOT was; feels fine to me, surprised that it doesn't shift firmer into 3rd - so he tried it again, got what he was looking for, took me back to the shop, thanked me for the run and smiled. He is a race car builder/driver. >:D

Butch will jump in later to add & or correct me on this, he is more knowledgeable in this area. :eek:
 
Well Guys.., if your truck is basicly stock., eliminating the Torque Management wont show much gain..., its when you start Moding things that it really starts to show up.., just something to remember.....That said.., if you are Moding the engine or Trans, and Rear end..., then its going to show its ugly self up. If you have a 1500 series.., I would look at Beafing up the Trans, and Rear before any serious Mods.., just a suggestion.., as far as being a slug out of the hole.., its a Heavy truck..., and if you have the 5.3 that makes pretty good top end power.., but is Hurting Badly down low..., its even worse, even if you have 4.10 gears... a Converter, and Trans Mods would help a lot here......
 
The other thing is.., depending where you are.., it maybe a little difficult finding a shop that can do the Torque Management Right.... I finely found a shop here that can do it.., and Do It Right.., they specialize in Moding Corvettes..., they did a truck for a guy I know, who put a Vortec Supercharger on his.., and He was over joyed with what they had done.., before He went to them.. He had Two other shops who said they could do it..., try to.., He said He wasted His Money.., they only made things Worse.., so be careful who You have do this.., its not Easy to do.. Right
 
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