Undercoating

[james21]

Well I've been driving my AV for 6 years since the job was done, so I think they did a good job.

 

[Calicak89]

Holly Molly is that stuff expensive 27.50 for a 14 oz can.

http://www.lloydslaboratories.com/search.php?mode=search&page=1

It is expensive, but it's pretty much bomb proof. We used Lloyd's LLRP, A.K.A. Kryptonite, on the ends of coated bar stock and cut steel plates at work. The only way that we figured out to get it off was to machine it off, or use Industrial grade ZIP STRIP and let it sit about 3 hours (18 times longer than the 10 minutes recommended) and scrape
I've never seen it used on a vehicle, but seems like a good idea. If you have something that needs to be protected and can't be powdercoated.

 

[MS03 2500]

Yeah it sounds like good stuff looking at other sites it appears that GM dealers are using it on a lot of the 2013s. No long terms results yet.

 

[WVa]

I dropped the avalanche off today at the dealer. To have the truck disassembled and have the frame powder coated.They will have it for at least two weeks. Im driving a 2014 silverado. It's not bad but it's not my avalanche. I feel like I'm on the show overhauling but with out Chip Foose. I will keep you update with the progress.

 

[WVa]

This is where I found my avalanche today.Setting out behind the Nissan shop. It has been at the dealer since last Monday. No work has been done on it. It's suppose to be torn down to the frame. They said it would take two weeks. One week down nothing even started.The kicker is it was unlocked. Guess who is getting a nice phone call monday morning.

 

[4x4dreamer]

The frame on our 13 is rusting as well.. its really bad around the body mounts in the rear and its flaking pretty badly as well.. I suppose i'll give the dealer a call this week and see what they say. If GM agreed to fix yours, then they should mine as well.. I'm in WV too. Who is your dealer? ours is Crossroads Chevrolet in Beckley

 

[WCFields]

This is where I found my avalanche today.Setting out behind the Nissan shop. It has been at the dealer since last Monday. No work has been done on it. It's suppose to be torn down to the frame. They said it would take two weeks. One week down nothing even started.The kicker is it was unlocked. Guess who is getting a nice phone call monday morning.

After you make contact with them tomorrow to express your concerns, Close Your Eyes. Stay Away From the Dealer. I thought all was good until you mentioned Nissan Shop today. I assumed it was a GM facility doing the work. They may sub it out yet.

When you finally get the call to come and get it, take your creeper and be prepared to crawl around underneath for a good long time inspecting every inch of the frame, Ground Points, Brake Line supports, etc., and take a flat head screw driver with you to push, pinch, or chip any areas you suspect were not resolved, or to validate that any work was actually performed.

Try to look at all electrical connections to ensure hey have not been damaged and are properly seated. You may need a few flashlights too.

Be prepared to leave it again. I have had to do this with unsatisfactory paint & body work. Yes, it will be extra time for you in their Loaner Vehicle, but which is better, them trying to rush the job because you are breathing down their necks, or allowing them to let it be parked longer than expected? heck, their A Team may be on vacation at this moment.

I'm hoping it will be good or better than good in the end.

 

[WVa]

It's Harry Green chevy Nissan in clarksburg.If you take yours in mention the TSB that has already been issued by GM for this issue.Let us hnow you results if you deside to take it in.

 

[WCFields]

It's Harry Green chevy Nissan in clarksburg.If you take yours in mention the TSB that has already been issued by GM for this issue.Let us hnow you results if you deside to take it in.

Thanks for that clarification. I would still like to think they have a team doing some homework and communicating with GM about the process, or possibly another pair of eyes coming in from GM to participate with the process. It is just too much work to not do right and I'm certain GM will want to take the frame back to HQ for further analysis.

Patience is still your best friend.

Thanks.

 

[Thomcat]

Mine is doing the same thing. If you google gm truck frame rust there is a ton of bad news. Allegedly the wax coating on the frame is not intended to last more than one year. The problem seems to begin the minute these trucks leave the factory. I have seen rust on the frames of new Chevy/GMC trucks at the dealer. Like in this video: http://youtu.be/cS0IwYoiH1Y

Judging by mine and the Silverado in that video, I can't see what a big deal it is anyway since the drive shafts and some front suspension components are uncoated with 100% rust and the engine will be long dead before they rust through to the point of failure. All rust and rates of decay of iron are differ depending upon the carbon, nickel, and trace element composition of the steel alloy and environmental insults; sometimes it looks a lot worse than it really is, the composition and gauge of the steel alloy being sufficient to provide sufficient strength throughout the service life of the part.

Maybe where the frame was manufactured makes a difference....unlike the 60% Mexican parts in the video my was stickered at 65% US Canadian and 30% or less Mexican parts just like my '07 was. I'm in WV also and have the factory coat and the only place where my vehicles exhibit any type of (surface) rust is at the jack points where the dealer raised the vehicle or scrapes from concrete or rocks. The coating still has a little stickiness to it.

If the condition of the vehicle is anything like my '13 with 18, and '12 with 31 months service respectively, my 2 cents of advice to anyone considering disassembling the vehicle and sending the frame out for a redo is to leave it alone before they Humpty Dumpty it..

 

[MyBigToy]

My  '02 is rusting where the wax coating has rubbed off due to contact with the ground and/or tall weeds during drives on the farm. I'm going to spray these areas down with brake cleaner, spray them with a rust converter spray paint, and coat them with a spray-can undercoating material. I've already purchased all of the supplies but have other items that are ahead of of getting this done, like new drilled/slotted rotors and EBC Yellow Stuff pads, and a coolant flush/fill.

It looks bad but it's just surface rust; it would take a minimum of another 20 years before there would ever be a real issue with the rust.

 

[arizona-dave]

The stuff under my 05 and my 07 sure doesnt seem like "wax"...its almost like tar. Sticky, BLACK, Gooey, and its everywhere under there.

A few areas area scratched off from rocks and what not, but no rust, and no "flaking" or peeling. In fact whever Im under there working on it, I curse the stuff cuz its makes my arms and hands so filthy.

Maybe thats the "wax" everyone is talking about, but to me, its undercoating the same...and appears to be doing its job at least in AZ.

In the winter its significantly less tar-like and gooey, and much harder to scratch off, and also doesnt make my hands nearly as dirty.

my 2 cents

 

[WVa]

Last week I talked to the body shop manager again in depth about the disassembly. I asked about less invasive procedures. I also express concern about the ability of the techs to get everything back together correctly. He finally told me the truth and admitted that gm has a frame issue. He said they had to do the exact same process on a 2014 silverado and a 2014 car last week. He did not mention the model of car. When we talked about other procedures. He told me they tried other fixes and they did not hold up. That's whyGm has four lemon law lawsuits against them for this issue. The procedure they were using had to be scraped.Thats why they are going the way of a total tear down and powder coating.The issue with frames is they were not prepped correctly when they arrived at plant in Mexico. So the dip coating did cure correctly and did not adhere  to the metal as it should. That's why is flaking and you can rub it off with your finger down to bear metal. By the way i called and talked to body shop manager today. I asked him for a update. He said everything was on track to be done next week.The frame was going to the powder coater first thing this morning.I said are you sure he said yes. Again I said are sure he said why you how something I don't. I said yes my truck is next door behind the Nissan shop unlocked. And nothing has been done. He got very quite and said I will call you right back. I am still waiting on that phone call. I called at 8:00 am.I can't believe this is the level of service our tax dollars paid for. Ha ha

 

[4x4dreamer]

It's Harry Green chevy Nissan in clarksburg.If you take yours in mention the TSB that has already been issued by GM for this issue.Let us hnow you results if you deside to take it in.

I'm going to give them a call as soon as I have time. I still need them to fix the chipping paint on the 3rd brake light.. It's chipping all around the light itself. Like when they assembled it they let the light get under the edge of the  new paint. GM has had frame issues in the past, they newer ones are having a lot of surface rust issues. Even the autoride shocks are rusted after being washed at least once a week this winter. I'm more concerned that if the frame is already rusting and the paint is chipping with 12k miles on it, what is it going to look like in 5 years when it has 70k miles on it...

 

[WVa]

I finally got a return call yesterday from the manager and now they are not sure how they want to fix the problem. I told him he had until 2:00 to call me back ori I am coming after my truck. No phone call so to the dealer I went. He said the distric manager oked the powder coating fix but his boss a reginal manager wants to go in a different direction. But they have not decided exactly what that is. I asked why have you had my truck a full week and nothing has been done. He said the distric guy call the service manager not the body shop manager and put the work on hold.i guess those to guys do not communicate. When I got there they had it up on a rack. He said the reginal guy wanted more pictures. We found over 70 areas with rust.he said they getting ready to issue a new TSB from GM. If you can believe anything they say. Needless to say I said get truck off the rack it's going home with me. Call me when you deside. I guess it's time to escalate my complaint up the gm chain of command. I have already called GM consumer affairs and open a incident file. I will keep you updated with the solution they come up with. Incase other members start having rust issues.

 

[MS03 2500]

That sucks they had it a entire week and did nothing.

 

[Thomcat]

I finally got a return call yesterday from the manager and now they are not sure how they want to fix the problem. I told him he had until 2:00 to call me back ori I am coming after my truck. No phone call so to the dealer I went. He said the distric manager oked the powder coating fix but his boss a reginal manager wants to go in a different direction. But they have not decided exactly what that is. I asked why have you had my truck a full week and nothing has been done. He said the distric guy call the service manager not the body shop manager and put the work on hold.i guess those to guys do not communicate. When I got there they had it up on a rack. He said the reginal guy wanted more pictures. We found over 70 areas with rust.he said they getting ready to issue a new TSB from GM. If you can believe anything they say. Needless to say I said get truck off the rack it's going home with me. Call me when you deside. I guess it's time to escalate my complaint up the gm chain of command. I have already called GM consumer affairs and open a incident file. I will keep you updated with the solution they come up with. Incase other members start having rust issues.

My guess is the district manager will soon be looking for a new job.......no way GM is going to issue a TSB calling for a chassis removal and reassembly for late model GM truck owners that complain of rust........it took numerous deaths and Government action over a period of years for them to admit to and repair the ignition switches and that would have cost them what? maybe $100 - $200 a vehicle.....a proper frame strip down, ship out to a powder coating contractor and reassembly would cost multiple thousands  per vehicle. No one has died and likely the body mounts and A frame supports wouldn't rot out to the point of failure, if at all, for at least ten years which is the service life for parts inventory.

My opinion is that the results of their investigation (not that I agree) will be that this is expected wear caused by atypical environmental insults and likely aggravated by geographical,  maintenance and storage conditions. And unless it can be demonstrated that all vehicles manufactured using the same technique and coating material suffer a same manufacturer related problem, there will be nothing done short of spot cosmetic fixes as a good will gesture to customers.

This Winter my vehicles were caked with salt to the point where it was coming out of the creases where panels were attached; roads were heavily salted with ash, sand, dirt, gravel and anything else they could throw into the mix. Always parked them outside on the ramps instead of pulling into the garage....worst thing you can do is pull a salted vehicle into a heated garage (or unheated until the engine, cats and pipes are stone cold).....the heated salt water will quickly rot out any exposed metal including areas scrapes, rock hits, or peppered with micro hits from sand and gravel. Salted vehicles don't see the inside of my garage until it's warm enough to get under there with a hose to clean the chassis, fender wells and top of the gas tank.......and carwashes don't count since they recirculate the water and I doubt that based upon the expense and consequent reduction of through put any of them are using a desalination process, the best they do is filter dirty water. I do what I've been doing since the 60s when pre-unit body passenger cars had frames with no factory undercoating....hit any exposed areas with an oil spray, good until the next 3K oil change......as was done in those days by service station as a routine part of the 3K oil/filter/grease. Considering the amount of salt exposure my '12 had over two Winters there is relatively little rust on the frame

So, I wouldn't get my hopes up on getting a warranty dismantle, powder coat, and reassembly.....especially if the regional manager knows that you were accessing this club and posting to every other Avy member. Absent investigation results by NHTSA demonstrating the contrary, the last thing GM will want to do is issue a TSB authorizing dealers to expend $thousands per vehicle under warranty claims (particularly when third party repair work is involved) for something where there is no evidence to demonstrate a potential for injury related failure.

Hope I'm wrong, but my gut says they'll take the least costly method, blaming it on geographical, environmental, and user storage conditions.

 

[raiderron]

You could move here to Oregon where salt is not used. 

 

[WVa]

I talked to Jackie at GM consumer affairs today. She'd has been handeling my case. I asked her to call the distric rep and ask him to please call me. I need to how what the status is. She called me back and he told her they were going to fix the issue . But they have no plan yet Or a time frame. I asked why won't he call me himself. She told me he does not talk direct to consumers. That I would have to get my info through the dealer. I told her I did not trust what they are telling me. I want to get the info direct. She he would not do that.so I guess I am in limbo until the dealer calls me.

 

[WVa]

I spent my afternoon in the body shop managers office until he called the reginal manager.i finally got to talk directly to him. He told me he refuses to spend 5000 dollars and make my truck a show truck. I asked him what he was talking about. He said he was no going to powder coat my frame. He refuses to do that. I told he that was the solution you and the body shop manager came up with. I never requested the frame to be powder coated. I told him the body shop manager told me you oked the power coating and the sales manager at the dealership said you oked the repair.So I asked him what the solution is. He flat out said he has now idea or when it will be repaired. They are working on a frame in PA now. They are waiting to see how it turns out. Then they figure out how to proceed with mine.So I am again I limbo.

 

[WVa]

After not hearing anything for a week from the dealer. I drove a hour and half to the dealer where I purchased my avalanche. The service manager met at the door and we went out looked at the rusting door bracket and the small spot on the edge of the finder and he looked under the truck at the frame. He took it right in and put up on the rack. How he was looking it over even the salesman. Who sold me the avalanche came by to say hello and see if there was anything he could do . The manger decided right away to the spot on the finder and the bracket and frame needed fixed right away. The independent body shop they use will determine the best course of action. At the very least he is going to grind down the worst spot and spray them to keep them from getting any worse. He is going to contact his distric manager to see how gm is wanting to fix. But at least the rusting will not get worse. He might have paint it twice until they deside. What a difference In dealerships. I have not heard a thing not a call to say we are working on it nothing from my local dealer.The other dealer pulled a new silverado off the lot  for me to drive not a dirty rental but a new truck with 200 miles on it. Like I said what a difference. When I got home I looked under the new truck I was driving guess what I found more rust. Gm has a problem they hnow about but it's not fixed yet

 

[Thomcat]

My 2 cents is that is all you will get is a quick sanding/grinding and a spritz of undercoat. You're better off grinding it yourself, hitting it with rust restorer and then undercoat and save more time and aggravation.

There is no fix for this problem when you drive in the rust belt States or if the vehicle was transferred from a dealer whose lot was flooded and the rust got a head start. The old phrase is accurate....."rust never sleeps". The only fix is doing your best to prevent it in the first place....this Winter they were running out of salt and throwing anything they got their hands on on the road surface, usually the cheaper crap grade sodium chloride rock salt loaded with impurities..even fertilizer in a pinch......eats into unprotected metal like acid.....even a powder coated frame is not a solution because the worst areas are likely where you cant even see or coat, inside the hollow frame where the salt kicked in through the open holes and slots collects in the frame, bumpers behind the urethane cover, on top of the gas tank eating up the fuel lines and along the frame resting behind and eating up the brake lines. When the salt/snow mix melts and bathes the metal in warm water the rusting/corrosion starts immediately.  The only answer is to keep the vehicle outside in the cold weather to reduce the corrosion until you can get under there with a hose to flush it out. I flushed out so much salt as well as sand and ash off the frame, wheel wells and underbelly this Winter that my blacktop turned white and the next time it snowed it melted as soon as it hit the driveway.....if I didn't my '12 would likely be on its way as a rust bucket.

I'll bet the frames are in great shape on the West coast and Southwestern States with no maintenance at all.

 

[Randy]

I'll bet the frames are in great shape on the West coast and Southwestern States with no maintenance at all.

What's rust?? 

 

[WCFields]

My 2 cents is that is all you will get is a quick sanding/grinding and a spritz of undercoat. You're better off grinding it yourself, hitting it with rust restorer and then undercoat and save more time and aggravation.

There is no fix for this problem when you drive in the rust belt States or if the vehicle was transferred from a dealer whose lot was flooded and the rust got a head start. The old phrase is accurate....."rust never sleeps". The only fix is doing your best to prevent it in the first place....this Winter they were running out of salt and throwing anything they got their hands on on the road surface, usually the cheaper crap grade sodium chloride rock salt loaded with impurities..even fertilizer in a pinch......eats into unprotected metal like acid.....even a powder coated frame is not a solution because the worst areas are likely where you cant even see or coat, inside the hollow frame where the salt kicked in through the open holes and slots collects in the frame, bumpers behind the urethane cover, on top of the gas tank eating up the fuel lines and along the frame resting behind and eating up the brake lines. When the salt/snow mix melts and bathes the metal in warm water the rusting/corrosion starts immediately.  The only answer is to keep the vehicle outside in the cold weather to reduce the corrosion until you can get under there with a hose to flush it out. I flushed out so much salt as well as sand and ash off the frame, wheel wells and underbelly this Winter that my blacktop turned white and the next time it snowed it melted as soon as it hit the driveway.....if I didn't my '12 would likely be on its way as a rust bucket.

I'll bet the frames are in great shape on the West coast and Southwestern States with no maintenance at all.

Jeez, You're just full of Good News! And all of it is probably spot on too.

I had a feeling the original post regarding the Frame Removal/Resuscitation was just too good to be true. Words we all wanted to hear, but knew were too good to be believed.

Had this been me, I would have taken the New Silverado and never called them until they called me. Of course, continued making payments, but let them wonder where their truck is rather than hounding them.

I still have not crawled under my 2013. I don't even own a creeper. But, I will get to this later in the week and see what is going on after 18 months.

Yes, I do live in the West where we don't get enough rain to wash off the little salt I've picked up in the local mountains over the past 2 winters.

On the 2003 Avalanche, the drive shaft looked like the bottom of the Queen Mary should by now. I did consider doing the Red Green handyman trick by strapping myself with duct tape to the truck while it was in drive and using emory cloth on the shaft as it turned. I decided the Bride would rather see me as handsome than being over the top handy.  

 

[Thomcat]

I'll throw in another penny for a final 3 cents worth of opinion.....this a is not directly GM's doing or even the industry's doing, but society's doing just like AFM, start/stop, POS environmentally friendly paint/clear coat formulations and any other ingenious idea to reduce costs and get more from less and thus maximize investor return and employee bonuses, and/or meet Government mandates..

And it is not unique to GM, after you look underneath a Silverado, look under an F150 or check the blogs on other late model trucks that've been in the service in the Rust Belt. It is reminiscent of what plagued the Japanese imports in the late 70s and early 80s. Early Japanese imports were not really designed for US salted Winter roads, they used thinner, tougher steel throughout on the panels and frames to reduce weight and get greater mileage. Door panels and fenders rusted like crazy....Honda would even replace fenders on many low mileage vehicles; my neighbor's '83 Honda dropped the motor on a NYC pothole when the motor mounts and tranny supports rotted out after a few Rust Belt Winters. Problems became apparent as they began to routinely heavily salt Winter roads in response to changes from driver's habits relying on the new radial all weather tires instead of the previous norm of bias belted snow tires with embedded tungsten carbide studs or full chains.

The chemistry of the steel alloy is what determines it's properties, increase the carbon to make it stronger, add chromium and trace elements and you can make it softer and stainless, want to make a gear with a fine finish add sulfur and increase stamping pressures, etc. Look under a late model Ford truck or other late model truck and you'll likely see the same rust. In order to increase gas mileage, the industry has apparently changed their steel formulation to make the steel alloy stronger so they can reduce the gauge of the metal and the cost is that there is less resistance to iron oxidation and rust and a higher rate of decay when attacked by the salts of more reactive metals specifically sodium, calcium and potassium. And the industry does not wish to bear or pass on the cost of treating and coating the steel in the frame the same way as on the body panels or as is done on the frames of show cars. If not cared for, untreated common steel or steel with a poorly treated or mechanically damaged surface coat will rust out much faster in Rust Belt States and areas subject to ocean salt spray. Rocker panels and door panel bottoms of 60s era vehicles would rusted out quicker because they increased the size of the cars and reduced the gauge of the panels..... uncoated steel  was the first to rust.....it was SOP to clear our door drain holes for clogging and lower the windows slightly to flush out the doors and flush out the rocker panels to delay rust....after years of getting reputations as rust buckets, the industry went to more expensive coating, unit bodies and treating of their thinner body panels and since frameless autos have unit bodies with the same surface treatment as the panels, their underbellies are more resistant to rust than the heavier, less costly treated truck frames. No more rotted out fender wells either because they are now plastic instead of steel.....too bad they can't or won't make a frame out of a rustproof composite.  If in fact our newer trucks have frames made of thinner steel of an alloy apparently less resistant to rust and surface treated only with a mixture of tar and snot we will see more rust if not cared for properly in Rust Belt States.

Gone are the days when you just drove the vehicle and didn't worry about the finish or its rotting out. I used to wait months before washing the vehicle.....now I carry around a bird crap kit...because if you leave it on the newer environmentally friendly clear coat even for a day in the hot sun, it will begin eat into and may permanently dull it beyond full recovery with clear coat polish .....too long and it will eat through and craze the color coat below.

Sorry for the long winded tirade, but this has been a pet peeve for years; cursing every time I hear a shovelful of road salt kicking up against the frame and fender wells, have to hose out Winter crap from the recesses, or wash off bird crap.