Major Fuel Leak

2002 1500 Z71

I replaced the fuel pump and started driving again last week.  Everything went fine, so far as I could tell.  I have been driving with a 1/4 to 1/2 tank, no issues.  So, I went to fill it all the way up today.  After the pump shut off I realized gas was pouring out the bottom of the truck.  This was with the engine off, of course.  Ok, skipping long story of cleanup and getting home.  At this point, the fuel gauge is over Full, and if it is parked level or uphill, it's fine, no fumes or any sign of problem.  If it is parked downhill, gas comes out from around the front end of the tank.

It seems like the EVAP system is tight, no errors/codes.  And I don't think it's the fuel/return lines because it does not leak when it is running on level ground.  It is not leaking from the back at all, the filler area is dry.

So... something about the sealing at the pump.  The pump went in the tank just fine, I had to apply just about the right pressure to hammer the retaining ring home.  I did all that in a nice well lit environment, I cannot believe it is an issue with the rubber pump collar.  I did have a time getting one of the electrical connectors to fit.  Not the one for the pump/gauge, but the other one which I guess is some kind of pressure sensor.  But, it didn't seem like it broke or anything.  I just had a tough time getting the connector to fit.

I'm contemplating options now, but I don't have many.  The weather is getting too cold for a big job like dropping the tank again.  And then... I mean, how do I even test this.  I have to get the tank nearly empty to drop it, then fill it up full again on the ground, fix whatever it is, empty it out again to put it back in the truck.

I could run it and keep it below 1/2 tank until spring.  At 1/2 tank, no leaks, no fumes.  I am in complete denial, the better move is to get it to a shop and have them fix it... might as well let them have it for a week and replace all the rusty fuel and brake lines.  but the way this truck has been, I could get all that work done and then the tranny fails.  This completely sucks.  I have done so much work on this truck in the last month, there has not been a day when I have not had sore muscles from it.  New headlights and center console just yesterday.  Part of me thinks I should get the gas leak fixed and sell it.

Anyway, I'm mainly posting this to see if anyone has ideas on cause, has had similar problem, etc... Thanks.

EDIT: Yeah, I just got a shop quote of $400.  I'm going to take it in.

Ugh, sorry to hear that.  Can you get up there with a camera to sort out where the leak is coming from?  That's what I did to find my rotted fuel line.

If found this DEPSTECH Wireless Endoscope, IP67 Waterproof WiFi Borescope Inspection 2.0 Megapixels HD Snake Camera for Android and iOS Smartphone, iPhone, Samsung, Tablet -Black(11.5FT) to be very handy to look into hard to get at areas.

Time to get truck up on lift and start looking...

might recheck fuel pump assy as that is new and leak occurred after... could be anything.

Yeah, the scope thing sounds interesting, it would most likely show me the issue.  The thing is, I'm on a timeline now.  We have had one winter storm, only got a few inches and that's long gone, but they got 17" in ND, not that far away.  And my honest to reals nightmare would be to have this taken back apart and get a major snowstorm.

I'm 58.  I can count the number of times I had to take a vehicle in for repair on one hand.  So, it's a thing with me. A vehicle repair is an opportunity to learn.  But, I think I have to let common sense prevail.  Probably going in later this week.  I'm kind of sorry for them, the tank is plumb full other than what has spilled out.  It's a big shop, hopefully they have a good machine to drain the tank instead of syphoning it into pails!

I started this post out of frustration, sorry for that.  I'll post the cause next week.

Thanks!

I saw the mechanic at the shop I used take an auto-starting siphon hose and drain a gas tank into containers that they had just for that purpose.

After the repair, they poured that gas back into the tank.

They can drop the tank using a lift and a transmission jack quicker than you can get the truck up on jack stands.

Don't worry about the shop.

This is standard operating procedures for them, if they are worth their salt.

Let them find the problem and fix it right and you can roll on down the road into the next snow storm with no worries.

Man, I can totally relate.  I threw in the towel and took it to the shop after my fuel line blew because I was up against a deadline.  Best of luck and let us know how it goes.

So, the shop decided it was the rubber collar on the pump before they even looked at it.  Ordered a new one, didn't help.  Then, they decided there was a hole or crack of some kind below the collar where the pump mounts. I guess... it was a major battle to get the old retaining off originally, so if I tweaked something, I can accept that.  So, they got a used tank, but it had one of the little vents broken off, so they tried again and based on however they are testing it on the shop floor, they think they have it fixed.  They plan to re-install the tank Sat morning, and I should have it back by early afternoon.  There is a gas station right next door, so I'm going straight there and filling it all the way up again.  If it leaks, I'll drive it right back and let it leak in their parking lot.  If it doesn't, there will be a happy dance.

Here's hoping for a happy dance.

Hoping everything works out in your favor.

I wanna see video or pics of Happy Dance!

(working on a new reply... early warning, no happy dance today)

Good Luck!

I think... sometimes... you have to step back, and keep stepping back until you can find a positive spin on something that didn't go so well.  Otherwise, you end up being a grumpy old person that spends Thanksgiving alone. 

At any of several moments in the last year, this truck could have gone up in flames, along with anything close by.  So, there's that.  It is fixed.  Although they ripped me off in many really egregious ways, they gave me a 5% discount on parts and labor.  And by not grumbling too loudly, I think they will honor their warranty, which is well written and spelled out, 1 year, 12k miles.  So, there's that.

For nothing more than personal closure, I'm going to share how this mess evolved.  Kind of AA for vehicle owners.

For those just tuning in, my truck developed a leak last winter.  It only leaked when the engine was running, and continued briefly after shutting it down.  It was a minor leak, a drip.  In looking over this fine message board and other internet resources, I came to a theory that there was a pinhole leak in the pump assembly, outside where a metal elbow connects to the line.  I had to live with it for a while because of financial issues.  I was able to acquire the parts about a month ago, and it took about 2 weeks to do the job owing to bad weather.

As I wrote earlier, after the repair, I went through a week of increasing the level of gas in the tank to gain confidence that it was, in fact, fixed without leaks of any kind.  Then, I took a big step and went from 1/2 full to completely full.  Unfortunately, and I will never forget this moment, when I was getting back in the truck, I smelled strong gas and there was a huge puddle of gas under the truck.  There was a cleanup effort and I nursed the truck home, a little shaken by the fact that all my work to fix it was wasted, and that the truck could fireball at any time.  I then realized how difficult this could be to diagnose, repeated removal and reinstallation of the tank, and since it only happens with the tank all the way full, the issue of draining, storing and refilling 30 gallons of fuel.  And, all of this with winter snow in the distant forecast.

So, I took it to the shop.  I don't like doing that, but it passed the line of common sense vs my time and abilities.  I have talked about this in another thread.  Now, for the shop work:

1) A few days after I dropped it off, they called and said it was the rubber collar on the pump.  I approved the purchase of a kit that included a new rubber collar, $60

2) This gets us up to yesterday.  They called and said it wasn't the collar, it was the tank itself.  I approved the purchase of a used tank.  It took two tries to find one... the first one had a broken EVAP nipple.  $110 (not bad, really)

3) So, this is where things get a little hinkey.  They called this morning and said the old tank, which I cleaned with great care 2 weeks earlier, was full of sand, as was the pump, and they would not warranty any work unless I purchased a pump from them.  Now, there has been no place in time for the first two weeks where anyone could have reasonably put sand in the gas tank.  It's just how it is.  I live in a very remote place, we never get anyone on the property.  I had it at work, and the site has very high security because of what they do.  I had it at a few stores, well travelled, and it would be odd indeed to see someone walking across the parking lot with a bucket of sand.  But, where they parked the truck waiting for parts... right on a curb next to a big pile of sand.  So.

And then, I realized something else.  They told me this morning that this was the first time they dropped the tank.  So, it's not at all clear to me how they started down the road of the rubber collar and the hole in the tank, without actually putting eyes on it and testing it.  I mean, you might be able to tell it was leaking around the pump from a mirror/flashlight or a video device of some kind, but to then turn around and rule one cause out and go with a cause... strange.

On the other hand, I was told that I was still on the hook for the kit with the collar, but in the end, they didn't charge me for that.

4) I approved the new pump and with speed which I still cannot imagine, they have everything put back together, filled the tank and road tested it in 1 hour and 20 minutes.

5) So, I go to pick it up, this is 2 hours ago.  Very interesting concept on pricing parts.  A Delphi pump is about $170 on Amazon.  This shop, which also sells parts, has it for sale over the counter for $269.99.  They charged me $370.00 for it.  They were almost anxious to show me the sand in the tank when I got there, which was pointless.  I got the old pump back, and it had sand in it. Ultimately, out of some sense of embarrassment or empathy, they gave me a 5% discount on parts and labor.  Given that they upcharged me an extra $100 for the pump, this was... well, better than nothing but not much.  The final bill was $930, which included filling the tank.

I'm going to call on Monday and see what rational they have for upcharging on the pump. I would have been better off buying the pump over their counter and handing it back to them, I would have saved $100.

Or not.  Very sad to say, this shop is the best in our city of 15,000.  It's the best equipped shop and I would not have trusted anyone else to do this work.  I will have to go back to them again someday for something else.  So, maybe I will eat the sandwich in front of me and be happy that it is fixed with a year of warranty, and lucky it didn't catch on fire at some point.  Sadly, this just killed the budget on the rest of my repairs.  I had a new radio picked out.  Maybe I can still squeeze it in. 

Thank you all for your sympathies and good advice.

Phil

Thanks for sharing your story.

I am truly sorry you did not have the best repair experience.

With any luck, this will be the last time you will have to visit this issue.

For your peace of mind, might I suggest just closing the book on this one and move on down the road.

I too, have left money on the table and had unanswered questions.

Life goes on and lessons are learned.

As you have stated, you may be forced to rely upon this shop later for something you can not, or will not want to, repair yourself in the future.

Not having many options can often put us in unenviable positions.

This too shall pass.

I suggest going and getting and ice cream cone and counting your blessings...
maybe watch a sunset or sunrise or grass grow...

eventually you will forget this moment and just be able to drive your truck.

Good luck and thanks for sharing..

I admire your ability to see the bright side for I would be the grumpy old man.  It's this kind of unethical behavior that has motivated me to take on repairs I would have never considered even five years ago.  I'm glad it's finally fixed and more importantly didn't go up in flames. 

Ya can't make up a story like that.

Yeah, I think I have to let this go and count my blessings.  The last reply here said you can't make something like this up.  But, I think they did.  I think must have dropped the tank earlier when they flipped from the rubber collar to a hole in the tank.  And, they didn't want to charge me for that misdiagnosis but they still had to somehow make that labor back up so they were not doing the work for a loss.  The way they manipulated the story is less than ethical, but had they actually charged me for that first tank drop, which was a logical thing to do, I would still be at just about the same total.  But, it opened up a door to an argument about charging me for something that ended up not fixing the problem.

This reminds me of a previous career where I was a field technician for large cash register systems, like grocery stores and restaurants.  One of the issues we had with our own management was how to charge for a complex repair, where we had to try the most obvious cause and fix, but it ends up being something else less likely with similar symptoms.  So, the first attempt didn't work, but the second attempt did.  Do you charge for the first attempt?  The answer is... yes.  If you competently did the best you could to diagnose the problem and it still ends up being something else, there is no sin in charging for the first attempt.

In fact, I will give you an interesting story for comparison.  A few years ago, I saw a doctor for chronic knee pain.  After some x-rays, the doctor determined the best course of action was a cortisone shot. Within a few hours, the pain got dramatically worse, intermittently.  I would be walking through a store just fine and whammo, I'm leaning against a shelf.  I got back in to see the doctor and he decided to drain the knee and send the fluid in for testing.  He got blood along with the normal clear fluid, which he thought was odd.  I eventually saw a different doctor in the same clinic, but by that time, the problem had subsided on it's own and the only thing he could offer was to go in arthroscopically and look around. He theorized that the first doctor might have nicked a blood vessel when he was injecting the cortisone, but what's done was done. Now, I'm saying all this because I got billed for all of this work, and none of it helped, in fact, made it worse briefly. 

You bill for labor, not for the solution.  That's the reality. And I think they fiddled with the story a little bit so I wouldn't jump on them about missing the first diagnosis, and upcharged me for the pump so they wouldn't have to take a loss for the work.  And, I can eat that sandwich. 

Something I didn't mention before was my previous repair with this shop, which was in the dead of winter last year.  Just out of nowhere, the truck started dumping power steering fluid.  Interestingly, for this era of GM trucks, if you are in sub-zero temps, you have to run a special power steering fluid, otherwise you get a backpressure that blows out a hose.  And, in reading, I found this to be true.  They charged me $180 parts and labor, which I thought was extremely reasonable.

So, in closing, yes.  I'm just going to close this chapter.  It's going to be a great day here in northern MN.  I'm going to clean my shop.  With everything going on the way it did, it looks like a toolbox exploded in there and I need to set it right before winter.  Come sun-up, I'm back to working on the Avalanche... next problem on the list... I need to change out a door lock cylinder.  This is odd.  I got the truck with one physical key and an aftermarket remote fob.  The key fits everything but the doors.  Now if you think about that, it's hard to figure out how that could be.  I suppose some time in the past, one door lock failed, and someone replaced both door locks with a different keyed lock, and subsequently lost those keys.  That's all I can think of.  And, I have an odd thing going with my radio, which is the original Delco CD player.  There is no sound from the back speakers and the front speakers are distorted with music, but ok with speech.  I am guessing the 17 year old speakers are dead, but it could be the entire system.  Well, that's a whole 'nother story for a different thread, if it comes to that.

Hey, thanks again everybody.  I do want to say this has all been very helpful, and I am going to sign up as a supporting member for 2020.  This forum has proved it's worth.

Phil

Update: 5 hours in, still working on the door lock cylinder.  Wire clip got loose and slid behind the door handle.  Took off door handle.  Spring in door handle broke, cannot match up a good replacement.  I kind of reformed the spring so it functions, buying new door handle for the guts to repair it properly.  Sheesh!

I can't get to my air filter, it's rusted shut! LOLOL  I'm done for the day.

roadrunner777:

Funny how things are the same all over!
You mentioned having the power steering system dump fluid. Mine leaked like a sieve - ended up replacing all of the hoses, and replacing the seals in the steering gear...when I was chasing this problem like a mad dog. Finally stopped leaking!
The original GM radio was replaced with an aftermarket unit which was basically junk.
All of my speakers had cracked cones. Replaced the head unit, and the speakers. Still sounded like crap.
Bypassed the factory amplifier, which is located under the dash in the vicinity of the glovebox. Have heard that they are prone to failure. After running speaker wire directly to the head unit, it worked fine.
My air filter box bolts are ok, but had the mechanism for the driver door handle rust up a bit. Hosed it down every day with WD-40, and worked it in there repeatedly, and after a few weeks it finally freed up. Grab some penetrating oil and hose those bolts and tap on them to help it soak in. Eventually they will turn.
Be sure to replace your heater hose connectors that join the hoses to the heater core. Another well documented failure point. It will leave you stranded. Change them, and save yourself the grief of losing your coolant, and possibly overheating your engine and burning a head gasket.
I just recently replaced all of the fuel lines in my truck (and mine's a 2500, so two gas tanks had to be dropped)...man what a bear of a job...I was in pain for days afterward. Sometimes forget that I'm not 25 anymore...lol.
Keep on keepin' on! 

CarMech1969

Yeah, I'm in Northern MN, and this was a very deep freeze.  It stayed below zero for about a week, and was often -30 or worse when I went to start the truck.  The shop told me they always get a rush on GM trucks when it gets like this, from people who use normal steering fluid rather than the the 'colder than crap' version.

I'm kind of dancing around the radio thing.  I just ordered new front and back speakers this afternoon.  I think the backs are completely blown and the front-right is... well maybe a cracked cone like you said.  This will most likely be the last substantial work I do for a while.  I am annoyingly undecided about a HU.  I get really OCD about this stuff.  I really like the original radio in that it does most of what I need, it looks like it belongs there, I like knobs rather than going through menus to change things like tone and balance.  The knob thing... no radios are like that anymore, and I like being able to work controls without changing my road focus.  I am toying around with this: retain the original radio and relamp it so buttons are illuminated again.  I have an irrational desire to have USB and phone bluetooth, although I drive very short trips and really wouldn't use it much, if at all.  Part of that is MN passing a law requiring hands free phone use.  They make adaptors that add USB and bluetooth, they plug into the cigarette lighter and transmit on an empty FM frequency.  They're cheap, I may try that.  On the other hand, I could adapt a 2 DIN unit which would do everything, and probably easier navigation to basic functions.  Then again, replacing the HU is a whole can of worms I'm not really interested in chasing right now.  Modifications, amp bypass, etc...  I figure I have about 10 free days before winter really stops me, and... blah blah blah.

After some youTubing, I see the airbox basically lifts right out.  If I can get it on a bench and put some good tools on it, I can get it loose.  I'm curious.  There's a sticker there that says it has a K&N filter.  The little filter meter gizmo says I'm still 100%, so it's not an urgent thing.

Heater hose connectors... good tip.  I replaced a Ford Explorer with my AV and it had a similar weakness.  I am not thrilled with how my fuel lines ended up after this work, I should change them all, but that's probably a spring thing... same with my brake lines.  I told the repair shop I was thinking about replacing the lines before they started leaking and the guy glared at me.  Apparently, it's not an easy job.

Today was just a hoot, the lock cylinder.  I'm taking out the nuts that hold on the handle, and I know the odds it would drop into the door.  So, I put my hand under it, and sure enough, it fell, and bounced off my fingertips... into the bottom of the door.  Everything went like that, sockets, everything.  A long time ago, I bought this little magnet on a stick thing for a few bucks.  It so paid for itself today. But it just went on and on.  I got it done and I thought I would do an easier thing, my wipers weren't quite aligned, so I wanted to fix that.  Well, I have to get on a stool to get to the right wiper shaft... pry off the little plastic cover, put the cover safely in my breast pocket.  Get it all aligned, go to put the caps on and discover a new hole in my pocket... they're gone.  Found them, then I thought... heck, I'll check my air filter, how hard can that be?  Heavy rain for the a few days.  I can move on to something easier, like laundry or something.

roadrunner777 said:

I am not thrilled with how my fuel lines ended up after this work, I should change them all, but that's probably a spring thing... same with my brake lines.  I told the repair shop I was thinking about replacing the lines before they started leaking and the guy glared at me.

Click to expand...

He glared at you? Lol. I wonder why??



CarMech1969

roadrunner777 said:

They make adaptors that add USB and bluetooth, they plug into the cigarette lighter and transmit on an empty FM frequency. 

Click to expand...

Both my daughter and I have one of these https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07G5D5S1R/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1.  We're both very happy with it.  I use mine in both my '01 325i and our Avy and my daughter uses it in our '01 Suzuki XL-7.

Thank you so much for the recommendation.  There are so many to choose from!  How do you handle turning it on and off?  It says you can press two buttons at the same time... are you doing that every time you drive, leave it on?  Again, thank you.  I'm installing new speakers this weekend, and maybe new button lighting for the radio if the bulbs get here in time.  With a gizmo like this, it could check all the boxes for me.

CarMech1969 said:

He glared at you? Lol. I wonder why??

CarMech1969

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They are overloaded with work right now.  It's a 5 bay shop, well over 20 vehicles in the queue.  I think he was a little annoyed about doing pre-emptive work?  I don't know.  I have this shop, about 4 places that are over glorified tire shops, and a handful of local 2 bay shops.  I may try a smaller shop next time.