Problems From Day 1

[Chief]

I have already contacted the BBB, here is the list of problems I have had with the truck to date.
Current vehicle problems are preceeded by an "*".

*Oil consumption.

How much oil consumption? Do you have any smoke on start up? Do you have dieseling on start up or bad piston slap? When did the oil consumption start? There are a couple of TSB's specific to this issue.

*Pulsating dash lights

You've noted problems with your horn below with fuses blowing out. I've run through the list but it does seem you have an electrical problem in your Avalanche. Can you explain pulsating?

*condensation in headlights
*condensation in foglights

There is a TSB specifically on this issue. Look, if you take a clean dry glass, seal it tight with plastic wrap and sit out in the sun SOME condensation is going to form. With the basic end of seal beamed headlights light condensation is normal. The TSB covers this. Light condensation is described as water droplets smaller than 1 MM - a light mist. If you have large drops or standing water than yes you have a problem and the TSB clearly states the housings should be replaced. If you have just the light misting with tiny little drops this is normal. Switching to a "hotter" bulb, especially in the foglights will be a big help. I recommend the 899 or 885 bulbs. 899 if you live in an area with a lot of fog, snow, smoke or rain, 885 if you want more of a driving light.

*4wd/awd whines

Under what circumstances? My 4WD whines too if I'm going over 55 MPH, but if conditions warrant 4WD or Auto Trac you probably shouldn't be going 60 or 65 MPH. When are you using the Auto Trac and the 4WD? BTW - Auto Trac is not the same as AWD - but it is pretty darn close. Also although there is no TSB on the issue it is established that the quality of the front differentials leave a lot to be desired. The odd thing is a failed differential because of the drive line design can manifest itself in many different ways. As a matter of fact a combination of problems you outline when combined all point to a differential problem.

*awd clunks on take off

This actually may not be an Auto Trac issue but a transmission issue. If memory serves me right there is a TSB on this issue. I know that under cold conditions on very rare occassions when I go into reverse first thing in the morning there is a clunk but not something frightening. I also know that according to the owners manual the Avalanche does funky things on cold starts (and I mean that in a positive sense) so that the engine and transmission will warm up faster. However if you're getting a clunk on start up everytime in Auto Trac the two questions I have are why are you in Auto Trac? Secondarially it once again points to a failed differential.

horns failed(kept blowing fuses), almost causing 3 accidents,

How has this almost caused three accidents? Of the problems you've outlined this tied with the pulsating dash lights points to some sort of electrical problem under the dash. Of all the issues you list, this is the second biggest IMHO.

*Anti freeze leak on side of motor

This IMHO could indicate along with the oil burning the most serious problem. Anti freeze leak plus oil burning equals bad head gasket in my book, but there could be other issues. Are there any signs that oil has contaminated the coolant or vice versa? Do you smell anti freeze from your EXHAUST (of course if it's leaking you'll smell it off the manifold).

*Occasional popping noise from steering wheel while turning

Can you say bad differential. Your complaints on the 4WD system, start off and the popping on steering all point to a bad front or rear differential. Not to be critical but if you've been using Auto Trac or 4WD on clean dry pavement for a while that is a major "no no" in a part-time 4WD system. It will eat those differentials alive in no time.

*Windshield rattles on highway

Well established issue with more than one TSB. Rare on models that don't have a bug shield installed, quite common on those that do. Can manifest itself on non-bug shield equipped Avalanches (and Tahoes, Suburbans, Silverados) when there is a cross wind. Willing to bet it starts up above 50 MPH. Your windshield IS NOT rattling on the highway. The outer trim is. The fix is documented in a TSB...further how to fix it yourself for under 5 bucks and under 30 minutes is outlined on this site in the Fun Stuff section - March 2002 issue of CAFCNA Magazine. If you have a bugshield that the dealer installed - shame on the dealer for not doing the tape.

Alignment off on delivery , dealer notified on test drive

This is also a well established issue. When the Avalanche is cranked down on the trucks for delivery the suspension can be pulled out of alignment. The dealer will give you a courtesy alignment at no charge from 500 to 7,500 miles. The other possibility is although the OEM GoodYear tires have come a long way in quality, they aren't the best and you can have a tire out of round or with belt issues. I had to have the dealer cross rotate my tires at 1,250 miles on my Avalanche because it was pulling right. After that there were no issues.

*Body rattles when door is closed

Where is it rattling? What do you mean by the body rattling? When does it rattle? At idle? When driving all the time? Driving on smooth pavement? Rough pavement? Only when you hit a bump? Is it coming from "the body" or is a trim issue?

I know some are very minor, its just to prove a point that many minor problems = a big problem for me, Thanks for the advise.
Frank

Frank,

Honestly based on the list of complaints above it sounds like the issues you are having are far more related to an unresponsive dealer than your Avalanche. Are you having some worse than average luck with a number of documented issues. Absolutely. However as I noted above there are TSB's on many of your complaints, and the combined complaints on steering and transmission all point to a bad differential, which is also a known issue. It was known enough that the General made changes to the differentials up front on the 2003 models. If you have a locking rear-end the Eaton differential is an awesome piece of hardware.

It doesn't appear to me, but I'm not lawyer that you have a lemon. It does appear to me that because the dealer has not addressed some glaring issues your vision is a bit tainted on your Avalanche and what is a real problem and what is the way things are.

Seriously, I would take a few deep breaths first. Second, if you have OnStar push the button and talk to customer service. I had to do that once with one small problem with my Avalanche and it was fixed so fast I was shocked. Heck they even called me back to follow up that I was satisfied.

Keep us posted and if you want my help on this I'm willing to assist. Just take a few deep breaths. Once you get the above addressed I'm sure you'll be happy. Again, of all the issues above the leaking anti-freeze is the one I'd be jumping up and down over - the rest is easily fixed if you have a dealer that even remotely gives a poop.

 

[ultravorx]

Ok here we go!!
The pulsating dash lights, while looking at the interior lights at night, you will notice that they flicker, Its more noticable when your not staring into the lights, buts its annoying as heck when i need to use my visor mirror at night.
The AWD whine/clunk is I get an oscillating(sp?) sound while turning, especialy on an incline or decline. And starting from a stop, the awd shudders and or clunks. my 2000 excalade never did that.

The close causes for accidents with the horn issue was that about 3 people tried to cut me off in once week, and i had no horn to warn them i was there, so swirving and jamming the brakes is what saved me.


It doesnt seem as if my oil is contaminated with antifreeze, its just leaking on the side.

The steering wheel pop/clunk is supposedly the intermediate drive shaft. It only happens occasionally around corners.

Im aware of the windshield trim rattling problem and know the fix, this was just tossed in to prove my point with GM about having numerous problems.

As far as the alignment, i told the dealership on the test drive it was out of alignment, and they said it would be fixed on deliverly. Which they never fixed, i had to go a week later to get it resolved.


As far as the body rattle, its when i close my door, the drivers side sail panel area rattles like there is a loose clip/screw inside of it, kinda embarassing on a new truck

Finally as far as the headlight foglight issue, the new dealership is addressing this issue.


I actually just contacted the president of the dealer that i bought my truck from. They are reviewing my case and will call me tomorrow morning(hopefully). I told them i either want a buyback from them(not GM) or a new truck 2003 AV or EXT( they are also a caddy dealership) I see what happens tomorrow.
I hope this info gives you guys a bit more insight on my problems.
Frank

 

[ShapeShifter]

The pulsating dash lights, while looking at the interior lights at night, you will notice that they flicker, Its more noticable when your not staring into the lights, buts its annoying as heck when i need to use my visor mirror at night.

Check out the dash lights pulsting topic, it sounds like exactly what you are talking about. The solution is to add a jumper wire to the back of the alternator, as dexcribed in this post.

The AWD whine/clunk is I get an oscillating(sp?) sound while turning, especialy on an incline or decline. ?And starting from a stop, the awd shudders and or clunks. ?my 2000 excalade never did that.

The Avalanche and the Escalde have two different four wheel drive systems, and they behave differently. The Avalanche has "selectable four wheel drive" where the Escalade has "all wheel drive." The important difference is that the Escalade system is full time, where the Avalanche system is not.

The system on the Avalanche is only intended to be engaged when the road surface allows wheel slippage: snow, sand, gravel, etc. If you engage 4HI on hard pavement, you will always get shuddering/binding on turns. Even the "Auto 4WD" setting is not same as full-time four wheel drive. In that mode, the front driveline is still engaged, although the transfer case is not providing power to the front driveshaft. When slippage is detected, the transfer case then gives power up front. At that point it is just like 4HI, and going around a corner on dry pavement will cause problems.

A true full time "all wheel drive" or AWD system, like the one that I think is on the Escalade, has a viscous coupling in the transfer case that prevents binding of the front and rear driveshafts when going around a turn. It is designed to be engaged all of the time, unlike the Avalanche's system.

It might just be possible that some of the clunks and shuddering you experience are normal, if you are treating it like an AWD system and engaging it on hard pavement.

For more information on this, try looking at help me understand my avalanche and 4wd not really 4wd

As far as the body rattle, its when i close my door, the drivers side sail panel area rattles like there is a loose clip/screw inside of it, kinda embarassing on a new truck

Yep, there shouldn't be any loose parts rattling around inside, and it sure can be annoying when they do. If it is repeatable (it happens just about any time you close the door) it should be easy to track down. It just may take a while to take things apart to the point where they can get their hands on it. This shouldn't be a hard problem to solve, but it will probably take some work.


As for the other issues, it looks like you have a handle on most of them, or other people have already made suggestions.

Good luck on your truck. I hope you get things fixed up or otherwise resolved to your satisfaction.

-- SS

 

[hq]

I actually just contacted the president of the dealer that i bought my truck from. ?They are reviewing my case and will call me tomorrow morning(hopefully). ?I told them i either want a buyback from them(not GM) or a new truck 2003 AV or EXT( they are also a caddy dealership) ?I see what happens tomorrow.

Dealers normally do not "buyback" a vehicle unless there was gross negligence. ?The "buyback" normally applies to GM under the lemon laws. ?

I once took a Chevy Van into a dealer for an oil change and they forgot to refill the engine with oil. ?I drove off and the engine seized. ? The "bought" back the vehicle at retail blue book and sold me a new one at invoice. ?I doubt that would have happend at one of those quickie lube places. ?

Even in a lemon law buyback, there is a mileage offset. ?Miles Driven before qualifying defect / 120,000 x Vehicle Purchase Price. ?Which means that if you drove, 12,000 miles before the problems was identified, you will lose 10% of the value of the vehicle in a factory buyback.

You have to remember that this is a motor vehicle not a TV or computer. ?Unlike Dell or Costco, you cannot simply take it back to your dealer and tell them to replace it because you are having problems (no matter how many). ?

As stated in the previous post, take a deep breath, look at the situation rationally. ?Determine what is fair for both you, the dealer, and GM. ? Also think of different alternate solutions. ?

 

[imaniguana]

Another option is to deal with it differently. For example, you can spend all sorts of time going back and forth to the dealer, making lots of phone calls, filing complaints, etc. All this is a lot of agro.

What if you just give yourself the option of trading it in after you have it a year? By then, most of the problems should/might be fixed. If they are fixed, then think about keeping it. If not, trade it in for an 04 Av or whatever else you like. That's the point! You can ditch it. You are not married to it.

None of the problems you've had should even come up as trade-in issues, unless the dealer really starts digging with a fine tooth comb and 9 times out of 10 he won't care anyway, since he's probably going to take it to auction to get his money out of it.

Just my two cents.

 

[ultravorx]

The only issue with a trade in is that I financed the 98% of the truck, I only put down about $1000. So I still would owe more than what i could sell it for, I dont want to be $10,000 in the hole.
As far as the escaalde 4wd system, it is the same as the AV's, it was a 2000 escalade, which was based on the chevy tahoe, so it want the full time all wheel drive system.
There is a used car dealership in my area that claims i can by a used car at a good price, and they'll pay off my old car no matter what i owe on it. There are no disclaimers on how much they can pay, maybe i should do that How bad would that upset them.
Frank

 

[the_wifes_av]

...
As far as the escaalde 4wd system, it is the same as the AV's, it was a 2000 escalade, which was based on the chevy tahoe, so it want the full time all wheel drive system.

I was wondering, are you saying that the turn-off/turn-on 4 wheel drive system on the AV is just like the permanent all wheel drive system of the Esclade?
I do know that the current 2002-2003 Escalade is a permanent all wheel system - was it not in the 2000 Escalade models?

There is a used car dealership in my area that claims i can by a used car at a good price, and they'll pay off my old car no matter what i owe on it. ?There are no disclaimers on how much they can pay, maybe i should do that How bad would that upset them.
Frank

I have seen those too - except, I have always seen a disclaimer in small print, that the excess (owe more than vehicle is worth) will be factored into your new loan payments, so you still end up paying the difference.
Maybe you have found one that doesn't use this tactic.

 

[hq]

The only issue with a trade in is that I financed the 98% of the truck, I only put down about $1000. ?So I still would owe more than what i could sell it for, I dont want to be $10,000 in the hole.


There is a used car dealership in my area that claims i can by a used car at a good price, and they'll pay off my old car no matter what i owe on it. ?There are no disclaimers on how much they can pay, maybe i should do that How bad would that upset them.
Frank

Without any equity in your vehicle, there is really nothing to buyback. At best, they will take it off your hands. Whether the dealer or GM takes back the truck, you will be dinged for the miles you have driven. There is no free lunch.

Anytime, you get rid (sell/tradein) a vehicle, somebody has to "pay it off" to get clear title so the used car dealer is not doing you any favor by taking it off your hands no matter how much you owe.

There is a huge profit margin on used cars so it is very likely that the used car dealer is adding the payoff amount to the purchase of your next vehicle. Again, there is no free lunch.

Example:
Your AV wholesale blue book = $25,000
You owe $29,000

Payoff amount = $4,000 to get clear title

Cost to dealer of "used vehicle" $20,000
Add payoff $4,000
Add dealer profit $2,000
Your price on "used vehicle" $26,000 + taxes

The used car dealer will probably pocket a few extra bucks with the financing since used car finance rates are a lot higher than new cars. I would be willing to bet your monthly payments will probably come out about the same in either case.

How many miles are on your existing AV?? If it is still under 36K and has the factory warranty, just stick it out. Remember all mechanical problems can be fixed. The only time it can't is when the dealer does not know how or is not willing. If it falls into any of those cases, you can pursue a lemon law case.

 

[ultravorx]

Right now i have 9000 miles, and its been in the shop 7 times since i picked it up in november

The 2000 escalade was basically a rebadged tahoe, which has the same for wheel drive with all wheel drive button like our AV's
Frank

 

[ultravorx]

Well Gm called me nice and early today I guess my BBB already went thru They told me it would take 3 weeks. I guess not! SO i told him of all my problems, with the truck and the dealership, he has been one of the nicest people to talk to so far. He is going to review my case and try to come to a resolution. He is saying he doesnt think my truck is a lemon,( i can under stand that due to the stipulations of lemon law), but with bringing the vehicle in for service so many times about 6-7 since novemeber, sure, if i wat for 2 years, i will hit the 30 days required for a buy back, I just dont want the hassle or wait that long before they help me. Still no call from Schaller's, but it's still early. Well, I'll keep you guys informed as it develops.
Frank

 

[hq]

Patience pays. My problem with my old truck started in August 2001. GM bought it back last Tuesday, and I finally pick up my new Avalanche yesterday.

If you are right, you will prevail in the end. It may take time... just hang in there. It was a lot of aggrevation but I wound up getting 35,000 miles and 1 1/2 years of usage for about $150 (mileage offset) + lawyer fees (minor amount).

 

[ultravorx]

What a suprise the dealership never called me, Im calling them right now to find out whats going on. I fugured that even the corporate side of the dealship would be as bad as the service side of the dealership.
Once again, I'll keep ya'll posted
Frank

 

[ultravorx]

Quick update, Gm has told my dealership not to talk to me I guess GM want to handle this all on there own, or that they realized Schallers screwed up pretty bad . I guess I wont know until next week on what happens.
Frank

 

[ultravorx]

Well, its mid week and still no call from GM : I was told i would get a call early in the week, I guess I'll have to call and see what the deal is. Hopefully its good news for me.
Frank

 

[sands611]

I have already contacted the BBB, here is the list of problems I have had with the truck to date.
Current vehicle problems are preceeded by an "*".

*Oil consumption.
*Pulsating dash lights
*condensation in headlights
*condensation in foglights
*4wd/awd whines
*awd clunks on take off
horns failed(kept blowing fuses), almost causing 3 accidents,
*Anti freeze leak on side of motor
*Occasional popping noise from steering wheel while turning
*Windshield rattles on highway
Alignment off on delivery , dealer notified on test drive
*Body rattles when door is closed


I know some are very minor, its just to prove a point that many minor problems = a big problem for me, Thanks for the advise.
Frank

Frank, any minor problem on a test drive- would have spooked ME to NOT buy that particular vehicle! just my opinion.
Anything I had noticed would have been fixed proor to me signing the ....dotted line.]

Good luck

 

[ultravorx]

Well, I just got off the phone with my rep. We played a quick game of Q and A. Were both waiting to see what the dealership will do on monday. It will be my 2nd time there for my problems. So only time will tell. This new dealership is very nice and understanding, but i was a little dissappointed when they couldnt fix my anti freeze leak the first time.
I was kinda suprised how much homework has been done thus far. He's really digging into this to come to a resolution. I'm very happy with this so far, because he is the first person to actually take interest with my problem and try to resolve it, I just believe one problem has gone too far with my truck to really fix it. The one with oil consumption/piston slap/ contaminated oil. If i have chunks in my oil now, that motor wont last much longer. I just hope GM can take care of me. I dont want to be a 23 year old college student with a $40,000 lemon. Im even remotely considering a 2003 AV if they offer it to me. Just because the motor is an updated one and the awd/4wd is redesigned. But I doubt that they will do that. Like i said, only time will tell.
Frank

 

[Chief]

Well, I just got off the phone with my rep. ?We played a quick game of Q and A. ? ?Were both waiting to see what the dealership will do on monday. It will be my 2nd time there for my problems. So only time will tell. This new dealership is very nice and understanding, but i was a little dissappointed when they couldnt fix my anti freeze leak the first time.
?I was kinda suprised how much homework has been done thus far. ? He's really digging into this to come to a resolution. ?I'm very happy with this so far, because he is the first person to actually take interest with my problem and try to resolve it, I just believe one problem has gone too far with my truck to really fix it. ?The one with oil consumption/piston slap/ contaminated oil. ?If i have chunks in my oil now, that motor wont last much longer. ? I just hope GM can take care of me. ?I dont want to be a 23 year old college student with a $40,000 lemon. ?Im even remotely considering a 2003 AV if they offer it to me. ? Just because the motor is an updated one and the awd/4wd is redesigned. ?But I doubt that they will do that. ?Like i said, only time will tell.
Frank

Frank, glad to hear you're making progress. Persistence pays off and you attract more flies with honey not vinegar. If you have metal flakes in the engine oil than yes, it's time to put the foot down for a new motor. However GM is not going to "give" you a 2003 model. They'll deduct for any mileage on your truck as reasonable wear and tear and there isn't a court or lawyer in the country that won't give them that.

Also, and please understand Auto Trac IS NOT all-wheel-drive. The definition of All-Wheel-Drive in marketing and engineering circles is as follows:

1) No selectable low range

2) All four wheels engaged at all times, even if there is a bias to the front or the rear, or times when only two wheels are engaged

3) Typically no way to engage 2WD versus AWD. The only example I can think of in that category is the very primitive Ford Tempo AWD models of the early 90's. They a part-time AWD system with no viscious coupling! Man that sucker would bind and bounce unless you were in the worst of conditions.

An EXCELLENT read my friend to educate yourself on all the combinations of 4WD is in Truck Trend Magazine this month and on the site.

Motor Trend - 4 Wheel Drive Story

This story is a tad dry and very technical in places - but I would almost call it required reading for any SUV or truck buyer thinking of getting 4WD.

Hope this helps and keep us posted with your progress.

 

[ultravorx]

Well over the coarse of this week i did some investigating of my own. I test drove 2 avalanches. An 02' and an 03'. Well well, to my surprise there was no whining in the AWD system and no clunking. I asked the sales person about this and said that the 03's were in fact redesigned. I figured then the 02' would maybe whine, but not clunk. Well, with the 02' on the road, big surprise , no whine or clunk either. What an interesting development. Well after doing this research of my own the past week. I brought my truck to the dealer for the"test drive" to seewhat my problems were. Of couse it happened to be snowing like crazy, not the greatest weather to hear noises in my truck. Well after some time, we finally managed to here the whining/ oscillating sound. Dealer said here could bareley here it, but the fact there was tons on snow on the ground affected here the noise. I can understand that. As far as the clunk, he first said it was wheel slippage,or my exhauset. so i turned off the awd to 2wd, guess what, no clunk. . Then he said it must be a loose ground on my exhaust Are you kidding me, I never knew the exhaust had a grounding cable, that must explain why i need new floormat relays and headlight oil So i just agreed with him and went back to the dealership. Since this head guy wont be there on monday, I will need to come back when he's there to address the whining/clunking issue. On monday now, they will look at my oil, change it, start oil consumption test, check out the pulsating dash lights(3rd time, but the dealer finally saw it pulsating). So it looks like im not getting too far with this, it just keeps getting dragged on while my miles accumulate. I just want to get this buyback going now, instead of waiting forever.
Frank

 

[ultravorx]

Suprise surprise , i just called up GM to see where i stand, no one there. My rep is out for the day i guess I'll have to wait till monday now. times a ticken and so is my mileage
Frank

 

[ultravorx]

Well, i finally got in contacte with my rep I was told they received the packet from the BBB. And they have about 14 days to review it and make me an offer. If i dont like the offer, then we go into arbitration. But the thing that sucks about arbitration is I don't have time for this. I dont get a loaner car when i drop off my truck, so i have to get a ride from my friends, they need to drive me 25 miles to work and 25 miles back, going thru security checkpoints and such. Pratt has a very secure workplace. So this is nothing more than an extreme hassle for me. Hopefully, they will do the right thing and make the customer (me) happy.
Frank
Frank

 

[ultravorx]

Well, I talked with my rep today We discussed some issues, and he is trying to find me a competent dealership to take my truck to. To try to get fixed. (TOO many TO's ) So, now, it look as if i just have to wait and see if theres a dealship that can fix my problems that 2 other dealerships couldnt fix
Frank

 

[rod]

if your AV is under warranty, the dealer will give you a loaner or GM will pay to rent a vehicle

 

[ultravorx]

I've only got a loaner once out of the 9-10 times i brought her in.
Frank

 

[ultravorx]

AGGGGGHHHHH I just talked with the BBB, and they informed me that GM will not buy back the truck. They said that my issues are due to my intake and exhaust. What basis do they get that from. I told BBB im going into arbitration and try to settle it this way.
Frank

 

[ultravorx]

Update: My arbitration will take place sometime in the first week or so in April. I was hoping GM would be able to settle before arbitratration, but I don't think that will happen. I still haven't had any contact with GM since last wednesday. So Im assuming that they don't talk to me any more until arbitration. I'm just not sure what to do about the overfilled oil. I want a reputable chevy dealership to take car of it, but GM hasn't provided me with one yet, I'm trying my best to do what they say in order to clear up this mess, but it just looks as if I need to arbitrate the issue. Wish me luck
Frank