Nitrous or Supercharger??

[bonedog]

Ok all.. now that the suspention, brakes, body and audio are takin care of I am thinking about going to the engine bay.

I was wondering what would be a better street application juice or a SC I hardley see the track, never tow, and I still love the MPG I am getting in stock form.... well almost stock form.

I read threads about SC and how they are linear in power and that supposedley while in cruise mod the engine runs as if almost stock. But on the flip side I have also read about trannies taking a dump, increadably poor MPG even when highway driving only, need of custom tunes and problems with that... the list goes on and on

I have also read numerous threads about NOS.... power at the flip of a switch up to 125 RWHP for under a grand. But I have also heard of the consiquences of a bad NOS setup... blown intakes, melted plugs, blown engines, fragged rears.

What are the real world facts of both these setups in the AV?? I mean who has had major problems with either setup? I don't the bench race results either.. HP/TQ numbers don't fase me much..numbers can change with everyones setup.... I want info I durability, hidden costs, drive train problems and how things went as far as install..was it you and the driveway/ shop/ both... things like that for answers.

Thanks guys I appreciate any info you can give.

Bonedog

 

[Vaeagleav]

Food for thought also is state laws on modifications. Virginia just passed a new law July 1st. You can NOT have nitrious hooked up in your vehicle.Does not matter if officer or trooper saw you using it.
Other states will vary on inspection and emissions testing too.
Good luck with deciding and enjoy your AV.

 

[bonedog]

Legality is not a concern to me. Jersey has a million stupid laws.. we just break them as needed

 

[jgwatsonjg]

Well,

I installed a Radix in my driveway in about 15 hrs. 6 were spent troubleshooting an incorrectly hooked up fuel pump. (My bad)

But if I hadn't done that I Would've been done in about 9 hrs.

The Radix is complete, from Blower Snout to intake manifold. This includes new injectors/fuel rails/bolts, New Belt Routing, New Belt, etc.

The Super Chips tune that comes with it is decent, not as Excellent as my Nelson Tune is now. But its a good starting point.

Yes I get Stock Gas Mileage on long trips and if I stay out of it. It will suck it down if I Floor it.

I would recommend a Shift Kit/Vette Servos/ and a Custom tune if you go this route for the best bang for your buck.

I have had no troubles with the Radix, It runs with Stock Heat Range Plugs(I replaced them with NGK Iridiums)/Thermostat.

JW

 

[Joe Pollick]

I posed this question to our staff Mechanic and he said to get the supercharger. Being a man of few words, I dug a little and his justification was that nitrous is a quick shot of power than can put a lot of strain on motor and driveline parts. Using a sports analogy, he compared using an oxygen mask to help athletes breathe on the sidelines versus nitrous being like drugs for your motor.

 

[bonedog]

Thanks for the info guys...

Seems the more I read the more confused I get. I want the power but don't want all the problems.

As far as SC go.. I know Radix is good from what i heard..what else is out there for the AV?? Vortech, ATI, Paxton are all names I have seen in other cars.. do they work in the truck?

 

[jgwatsonjg]

Vortech, Kenne Bell, Whipple are all out there.(Don't have any experience with ATI/Paxton)

Don't Discount a Kenne Bell/Whipple but get a Custom Tune for each.

Check with Nelsonperformance about the whipple.

And plan on having an extra PCM if you go kenne bell, They require you to send your stock one out before they will ship out your S/C (Been There, It sucks ass)

JW

 

[bonedog]

I already have the Nelson tune in my truck so I will just call Allen and have him just send me a new one if I go SC.

 

[ashadiow]

NO2 is FUN! however, on a daily driver, it pointless. get the S/C. They are so much more reliable, and will run for 100k or more as long as you take care of it. The ONLY downfall with the S/C is the cost. you can do NO2 super cheap, but you really get what you pay for. Once you get the S/C if you still need more gusto, which you will, because you are going to want to run in the 12's, you will then need nitrous. If you have the cash to blow, get the blower. And over the long run it may be around the same money. If you used the NO2 as much as the supercharger over 100k you would have to refill that tank a BUNCH of times... It'll add up.

Verdict: Whipple Supercharge that beast.

 

[bonedog]

the truck never sees the track..and probably never will... this is going to be a street truck through and through.

Looks like I may just go the route of the SC.. just priced out a complete NOS kit and when I say complete I mean soup to nuts wet kit with RPM window switch, fuel pressure saftey switch blanket, guages, everything even a TPS switch for our drive-by-wire setup. All this came to over 1100 with shipping.. Thats like half way to a whipple or vortech and about a quarter of the way to a radix. I guess I will just keep saving my pennies and dimes.

Thanks guys.

 

[TruckZor]

I went with the Radix because it's a near OEM quality kit and it had 2 features that were important to me...an intercooler...and the bypass valve. The bypass valve allows the vehicle to produce near stock fuel economy if you keep your foot out of it.

My tranny crapped out after 2500 miles but I think it was a weak unit to begin with. It always felt funny shifting into 2nd and that's the gear I lost.

Oh, and my original Magnuson unit was defective...it started making some awful sounds just 100 miles after the install...Magnuson overnighted me a brand new supercharger/intercooler...all I had to pay was return shipping on the old unit. Very good customer service.

I've been running this setup with a custom tune and a beefed up tranny for over 10,000 miles now...I love it.

If you're not prepared to deal with the problems that frequently arise with aftermarket modifications...I would leave it stock.

One more thing: if Kenne Bell or Whipple offered a kit with both an intercooler and a bypass valve when I bought my Radix...I would have seriously considered going a different route. The twin screw units are very efficient...not sure if they're as durable in the long run as the Eatons, though.

 

[bonedog]

Zor I don't mind problems but to go threw a tranny on a truck that I paid 40K for after dropping close to 8K in engine mods so far I thing is rediculous. If the SC will work for me and live happy yes I will do it but if in the long run it will cause nuthing but problems than I will just skip it and keep building the motor N/A.

I am not yelling or being snip... typed words don't convey actual meaning. I do appreciate what you said Zor... you are right about stayin stock if I was afraid.. I am not I just want to factor back in the reliability. Thats all. I was actyually looking at the ATI with intercooler or a straight Vortec setup. My friend has the D-1 Pro charger on his 5.0 track car and turns some pretty impressive times and the motor is basically stock except for the SC, intake and exaust.

Only time will tell.

 

[Aries]

May hav been posted already but, don't forget with an S/C you will have to run premium fuel for ever! That a hell of a fuel cost increase... And to blunt, NOS does NOT put any where near the strain on your motor/drivetrain that an S/C does. If you only run a small shot like say 75-100hp it will not hurt anything. The guys who blow stuff up are the morons that run 200+ shots on stock internals. If you are pumping 150+ extra HP from an S/C into it though every day of it's life, parts will fail a lot sooner. I do not hate S/C's and would love to have one on my AV but, if I did have one I would have to a lot of other things to be happy... Such as, tranny upgrade, new pistons and rings, ecu, etc, etc... If your going to do it, do it right!

Either way you are going to have issues with something at some point. You have to ask your self when do you want/need the power. If just for racing and making Hondas cry go with NOS, if you need power for towing, get the S/C...

And that's just my .02.

P.S. Bonedog, I love your out look on the law...







Personal Terms Of Service Disclaimer: These are just the opinions of Lord Aries and are not facts nor does he claim them to be facts. If you follow these opinions he will not be held responsible for the results should you be unhappy. Lord Aries will not be held responsible for you receiving a TOS notice should one be issued as result of his post in this or any thread.

 

[KY_BOB]

I personally think either one is fine on for the motor as long as you don't get greedy for HP. I had a stock engined 89 Mustang with a 200 shot of NOS and it loved it (7.90 1/8 mile @90mph on street tires). The 85-92 5.0's came with forged pistons. I'm sure I was at the limit of what a stock bottom end could handle. I would never run over 100-125 on a motor with hyperutectic(s?) pistons.

I had a friend running a Vortec blower on his 5.0 and it was great with 8-9# of boost but he got greedy. He changed the pulley to make 12# of boost and destroyed the motor, broken crank, bent valves, the whole 9 yards.

I do think the trans is the weak link. We both went through an occasional trans but that was to be expected with those cars. I agree that the AV is too nice and expensive to replace the trans every year or to.

Well there's my $.02

Bob

 

[sparky]

Well I feel that I have to jump in here. There are so many opinions and 'facts' being thrown around.

In my opinion, and from what I've seen and read, NOS is harder on an engine. You are blasting the motor. Like injecting yourself with adrenalin. Short term snap to the system. There is also far more in the way of maintainance and operating costs. Also, where are you going to put the bottle?? In the cab with you? If not some of your function on the midgate and bed are gone.

A supercharger is costly from the standpoint of needing 91 octane gas. However it is there, all the time. No switches, no 'snaps', press the gas pedal and there you are. There was not a lot of difference in gas consumption after install. A little better on highway. It is easy to see and feel the difference.

But, and I think this is a big but, what is around the system is important. The air flow for the motor has to be able to support whatever you do. So a stock intake and exhaust is going to limit any payback on a performance mod.

For my set up I did the following, in this order
1) K&N FIPK kit
2) high flow exhaust
3) headers
4) supercharger
5) SLP 1.85 rockers
6) Transgo shift kit

I would not do the SLP rockers again, did not think it was worth it.

After investigating I thought the whipple was the best choice. The Radix in is current version was not available when I did mine, so I can't say where it would have fit in my selection.
The whipple does have a bypass, they keep saying their will be an intercooler some day but I have not found a need. That said we only have 20 or 30 days a year max where the temp will go over 90 degrees.

I did not know anything about shift kits but it was strogly put forward by an ex-member, so I read, and read and read some more. The science made sense to me so I went ahead and did it as a way to cut down on strain, wear and tear on the tranny.
The guy who did my install has all kinds of 5.3's running around here with Whipples in them...no intercooler and no tranny upgrade.
The only thing I have done so far is change the oil in the SC. Book says it is only required every 50K but I wanted to play it very safe..
They were throwing Whipples in a pair of Hummers when I was there. 6.0 litre in those big pigs, no wonder they put a SC in them

So, bottom line. I would do the SC again, it is a blast. Would not do the rocker upgrade. Would do the shift kit. Not concerned about the inter-cooler. Would do an air intake and exhaust upgrade first no matter what you might decide to bolt on.

All of the above is just the opinion of the writer, and the writer's son who just loves to ride shotgun

 

[TruckZor]

I do appreciate what you said Zor... you are right about stayin stock if I was afraid.. I am not I just want to factor back in the reliability. Thats all.

Unfortunately, there is no getting around the fact that adding a supercharger or nitrous will put you well above the torque levels that the factory intended to be run through a 4L60E.

 

[TruckZor]

... And to blunt, NOS does NOT put any where near the strain on your motor/drivetrain that an S/C does.

I would like to know what your basis is for making that statement.

Also...just as an FYI...

The Magnuson is free wheeling under normal drive conditions. Measured in HP, the amount of stress that it adds under light throttle conditions is approximately 1 HP. It's only when you get into the gas that the bypass valve closes and it starts to make boost. Of course if you drive around like a maniac all the time the engine will wear out sooner...the same would be the case even if the engine was stock.

 

[sparky]

... And to blunt, NOS does NOT put any where near the strain on your motor/drivetrain that an S/C does.

I would like to know what your basis is for making that statement.

Yes, I found this fact of great interest myself

Also...just as an FYI...

The Magnuson is free wheeling under normal drive conditions. Measured in HP, the amount of stress that it adds under light throttle conditions is approximately 1 HP. It's only when you get into the gas that the bypass valve closes and it starts to make boost. Of course if you drive around like a maniac all the time the engine will wear out sooner...the same would be the case even if the engine was stock.

makes all kinds of sense

 

[Aries]

I would like to know what your basis is for making that statement.

Also...just as an FYI...

The Magnuson is free wheeling under normal drive conditions. Measured in HP, the amount of stress that it adds under light throttle conditions is approximately 1 HP. It's only when you get into the gas that the bypass valve closes and it starts to make boost. Of course if you drive around like a maniac all the time the engine will wear out sooner...the same would be the case even if the engine was stock.

Because I know a few very smart people who have building race and street motors for most their lives. But hey, like I said. It's my opinion and that's all.

I know everything you are saying about the Magnuson, the problem is that if you drive mostley city (Like most of us) you are defeting the purpose of the free wheeling system... If you boost a daily driver truck with stock internals, you are pushing it harder then it is built to be pushed. And I would not trust the tranny under that kind of constant load...

Look, do what ever you want with your AV... because in the end it's your truck and you are the one responsible for it...







Personal Terms Of Service Disclaimer: These are just the opinions of Lord Aries and are not facts nor does he claim them to be facts. If you follow these opinions he will not be held responsible for the results should you be unhappy. Lord Aries will not be held responsible for you receiving a TOS notice should one be issued as result of his post in this or any thread.

 

[TruckZor]

Because I know a few very smart people who have building race and street motors for most their lives. But hey, like I said. It's my opinion and that's all.

Well is it your opinion or your friends' opinion?

I know everything you are saying about the Magnuson, the problem is that if you drive mostley city (Like most of us) you are defeting the purpose of the free wheeling system... If you boost a daily driver truck with stock internals, you are pushing it harder then it is built to be pushed. And I would not trust the tranny under that kind of constant load...

I live on Long Island. There isn't very much open road around here.

Sure it builds a little boost when I pull away from a stop light at the front of the pack...but we're talking about 0-2 pounds of boost until you really get into the throttle...and nobody is forcing me to drive that way. Besides, that doesn't add very much stress to the engine.

As for the tranny...it doesn't care how you're making the power...your tranny doesn't know the difference between nitrous and a supercharger. It will last as long as you want it to. If you drive like a normal person and only go WOT in those same circumstances you would have used the nitrous...the durability will be the same. Do you disagree? The real difference here is that the supercharger is available for use all the time...and is threrefore more of a temptation. You see that as being a bad thing...I do not. My truck is capable of low 14 second 1/4 mile times...if I drove around pretending to be on the dragstrip everytime I pulled away from the stoplight...I would expect parts to wear out a lot sooner...the same way a person using nitrous would.

Look, do what ever you want with your AV... because in the end it's your truck and you are the one responsible for it...

Thanks. I already have done quite a bit to my Av and I will certainly continue to do so. I'm looking into a propane injection system next so I can push the boost higher.

 

[bonedog]

Well I feel that I have to jump in here. There are so many opinions and 'facts' being thrown around.

For my set up I did the following, in this order
1) K&N FIPK kit
2) high flow exhaust
3) headers
4) supercharger
5) SLP 1.85 rockers
6) Transgo shift kit

Thanks Sparky. I value your expert opinion... I think you have had the wipple the longest am I right?

Just to let everyone in on whats under my hood already is...

Violant cold air w/ K&N Intake tube
polished throttle body
ported/polished heads
3 angle valve job
Manley Street Performance Valves
Dynatech Long tubes
High Flow Cats
3" Y pipe/3" Intermediate pipe/ 3" in-out Flowmaster/ 3" tailpipes
Nelson tune

I was going to do the SLP rockers but at the time I heard they would show me anything in N/A form so I stood away from them. The only thing I did was go to Comp Cams Magnum Roller rockers though to save weight in the valave train.

I think I am staying away from the NOS for now... I have been looking at the S trim Vortec's or the P-1 Prochargers... seem to give the best bang for the buck. I have a guy that can give me a polished P-1 w/ aftercooler for under 4. I might go that route.

Thanks for all the info guys.. I hope this thread continues and gives others that are in the same position I am the insite to make their own descions.

Bonedog

 

[sparky]

Thanks Sparky. I value your expert opinion... I think you have had the wipple the longest am I right?


Bonedog

Well I have had it quite a while but I'm sure there was someone or multiples who put one in the Av before me. I know Gandy had one on his 8.1 2500 prior to me installing mine. I was focused on body and paint at first and then just could not help myself. Or that's the story I'm staying with.

Sounds like you have the air thing more than worked out. Did not know you had already done those other items. Time to throw a snorkle of some kind on there

 

[bonedog]

snorkle??

if you mean ram air.. I have it being piced up from the tow hook area and feed into the Volant. Not the one that comes with the Volant but made my own.

whats the opinion on Vortec, ATI Procharger, or Wipple for our rigs.

They are all close to the same price.. and I can get the ATI aftercooled same price as a Wipple. i was wondering the pros and cons of the systems.

 

[jonboyNY]

Forget the both and go with a TURBO.

Run like 13-15LBS of boost and your ripping.

Cant wait to post the finished product in the next couple of weeks!

Thanx guys.

 

[sparky]

Forget the both and go with a TURBO.

Run like 13-15LBS of boost and your ripping.

Cant wait to post the finished product in the next couple of weeks!

Thanx guys.

That's a lot of information for him to deal with all at once. All those facts and details