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Twin Turbos.

J

jonboyNY

SM 2003
Full Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
379
Location
Money Making NYC
Well people, after long hard talks and alot of research, I am ditching the supercharger and going with a twin turbo setup. I am custom building it with 2 garret based turbos with all custom work and tubing.

This project will take me about 2 months, hopefully less; but should blow the socks out of anything out there supercharger wise.

I should be at between 450-500 RWHP. The only mods I have to do to the engine will be rocker arms, connecting rods, and stiffer springs. Drivetrain, the usual, tq converter and tranny.

Will update everyone as soon as it has begun and finished.

If all said works, I will be offering the kits to sell and between the prices of $4995-$6000.00; possibly a single turbo kit too.

Has nothing to do with anything you have seen or heard before, it is comletely custom for the AV.

Thanx guys.
 
By the way, the reasoning why I am doing this is I want to be different, and I am sick to my stomach of people telling me either it can not be done, its too expensive, why do it when you can slap a supercharger on and be better then a turbo?

Its purely stupid for any of the reasons except for the cost factor. My goal is to make a TT setup that will outperform any supercharger on a stock truck whether 5.3L or 6.0L.

You must also know that a turbo is the most effecient blower you can go with, because it runs on gases your truck does not need. On top of that the stress on the engine is far less with a turbo then a supercharger.

To top that off, any real race car or truck is always turbo charged. The easy way out is a supercharger which is cool dont get me wrong, but if you want to be different and want to have the most power......imagine running 14-18PSI boost on a AV? You can do it with a supercharger but the stress will guarantee a break down.

Either way, just some ideas.

Thanx.
 
Sounds like good stuff John Boy!

Are you going to do it yourself? If so whats your experience been working with turbos? Intercooled?

Looking forward to seeing your results!

Rog
 
I'm drooling. I'm also having a tough time wiping the smile off my face. Just thinking about twin turbos and 450-500 RWHP makes me get a........(nevermind)

Have a good day


J
 
I'll bet that Integra catches people by surprise! That's faaasstt for just street tires. Ever try slicks on it? I can't wait to see the Av perform with TT's. Good Luck and keep us updated! (y)
 
Best of luck Jon,

If Lingenfelter put a similiar set up on a Caddy EXT then its got to be a good idea! >:D

Keep us posted

Joe
 
It is a good idea, but without the cost factor LOL.
You see LPE did a whole race block 427 7.0L engine with all the forged internals and then some. The idea is to do the same setup without the really beefing up the engine.

We can probably produce more then 700HP at the crank but we will not because the stock engine will not be able to handle it.

The most a stock 5.3L engine will be able to handle is between 500-550 RWHP estimated from what several LS1 guys that have 5.3L motors have been pushing. To be safe I would not go more then 450-475 RWHP.

The LPE EXT goes 3.7-3.9secs 0-60, 1/4 mile around 12.1-12.4 secs on street tires.

Our goal is around 4.0-4.5 seconds on the 0-60 with a 1/4 mile of 12.5-13.10 on street tires. The boost levels will be around 7-10 PSI.

The project is starting in about 2 weeks and we will go from there.

Thanx for the support. :)
 
Why do the turbo's put less stress on the engine as opposed to a super charger?
 
ibshortie said:
Why do the turbo's put less stress on the engine as opposed to a super charger?
Click to expand...

Stress probably isn't the right word, it's more of a load difference. A supercharger is powered by pulley, whereas a turbo is powered by exhaust air flow. Adding a pulley to your engine increases the load, or the work your engine has to do, but tapping into your exhaust to let that air flow spin the turbo isn't increasing the load.

Now...stress on the engine will increase in either situation because you are increasing the output above OEM levels. There is a limit to how much additional stress a stock engine can handle. That's what Jonboy needs to figure out. He's looking at the high 400rwhp....

Craig


 
Doesn't a turbo increase the exhaust pressures from the turbo back to the cylinder due to having to spin the compressor?

also doesn't a turbo maintain more heat in the engine compartment and engine itself?

There are plusses and minus to both systems of pressurizing the intake....

 
Yeah, I'm gonna watch this closely, too. Jonboy, if you do decide to produce a kit, pm me b/c we can produce the metallic parts for you, like stainless turbo exhaust manifolds and custom gaskets. Have you decided on a turbo unit yet? I can recommend Turbonetics for good, solid tech advice in sizing and construction. A high-end vehicle like the AV deserves a high-end turbo.

Oh, about "stress" on an engine -keep in mind that horsepower is never actually "free". Superchargers rob some of their excess power directly from the spinning crankshaft, but turbos rob it a different way -exhaust back-pressure. This is why turbo-sizing is so super-critical. If you wanted, you could have almost lag-free response from a small exhaust housing (and compresor wheel, etc.) on the turbo, but the back-pressure would build rapidly as RPM increaed, and the thing would not have good top-end power. OTOH, if one uses a big exhaust housing on the turbo, (and big compressor wheel, etc.) you'd have great top-end power, but lots of lag.

Lag is the basically the time delay from "when you stomp the pedal" to "when it pushes you back in the seat". There's lots of neato tricks now to help combat lag, like lightweight turbine and compressor wheels (lighter=spins up faster) and exhaust housings that change size and shape (called "variable vanes") and super slick ceramic ball-bearings (less friction = spins up faster), etc. etc. etc. However, the basic equation still holds- one must, to some degree, trade lag for horsepower.

This ought to be a really great project. >:D

 
jonboyNY said:
The most a stock 5.3L engine will be able to handle is between 500-550 RWHP estimated from what several LS1 guys that have 5.3L motors have been pushing. To be safe I would not go more then 450-475 RWHP.
Click to expand...

What LS1 guys are running 5.3L ? The LS1 is a 5.7. Are the two engines the same as far as the power they can handle ???
 
Well, I see I sparked many things here LOL.

Reason for TT setup, so we have no lag, and yes in order not to have it we are going with a right sized turbo for the low-mid rpm then the 2nd turbo to grab the mid of the mid-high rpm. Sizing is key, but being the AV is a V8 the gases are never a problem to push the turbines because the AV has enough torque in the beginning to get it moving...just needs lil HELP more LOL.

Superchargers work off the pulley of the engine, that alone is frictional loss and stress of the OEM engine directly, although the turbos do put stress its differently setup and not as harsh. It can become harsh when you crank serious PSI through the engine. (on a 4 cyclinder civic with 14 PSI of boost and its a daily driver...we have 2 like this besides the integra. Our AV can handle min 7...to maybe 14PSI....we will see.)

We are working with Garret and one other company which will remain undisclosed. Both are top names and both are doing the complete R & D with me. From setup to actual production kit.

Whats happening here guys is...bottom line:

I am using my truck to produce this kit, because the market is saturated with superchargers. A properly setup TT kit will outperform any supercharger PERIOD, Even if you running 20PSI with a supercharger LOL.

We want longevity, power, and cost effective kit that is available now through superchargers but in a TT setup.

Once this is all said and done, this whole TT project unveils and works, we will be launching the kit throughout the US and advertising all through the mags and what not. I will also subcontract probably SLP to help with the tuning...still in talks. But the tuning aspect is much further down the road.

The kit will consist of 2 hybrid turbos, all hoses, coated pipings, dual intercooler, etc. And a handheld unit to load the tune.

The beauty of this whole thing is that THIS CAN BE DONE and it will. Not only that it will be affordable, and yes CAFCNA will get a great group purchase. Once this works, will work on a 6.0 tune and some changes for 6.0 setups.

Hope this helps guys.

Thanx.
 
JB-

Awesome, sounds like you have this really well thought out.

Questions:

"...so we have no lag, and yes in order not to have it we are going with a right sized turbo for the low-mid rpm then the 2nd turbo to grab the mid of the mid-high rpm"

Sounds good. Are you going to do it with staged turbos like the TT Supra, or are you going to run a slightly different turbo on each bank of cylinders with no staging? I always wanted to try that!

 
Jonboy, I applaud the fact you're doing this. If I had the resources, I too would take such chances.

I am very excited about this thread. The Ave Mod list was getting mundane. This deffinetly spiced things up a bit.

I would like to take a look at what you're doing. I know we live pretty much down the road from each other. Let me know if you can use an extra set of hands on some week night or weekend.

Good Luck Bro!!
 
See if they can make a TT for the 8.1. Just because we already have more horses than the 5.3 doesn't mean we couldn't use a few more. Great job on looking at more options. Like quoted earlier, things have been a little dry around here.

Fireeater
 
Thanx alot guys for the support.

Power...I will let you know for sure.

Welder.....interesting you mentioned the supra, we MIGHT do a staged TT setup...this is what I am leaning to, however we have to download all calibrations for the oem computer to reason things like fuel management issues etc. We will see what is the oppurtune situation. If it doesnt work, we will go with a turbo on each side. We will see.

Fireeater...the first project is the 5.3L once this works then we will push the 6.0L and the 8.1L. I can get my hands on a 6.0L truck, but an 8.1L I dont know yet.

Either way, its going forward and time is moving, so hopefully we will have a setup shortly.

Thanx again.
 
Murfs said:
Ivan, where do I purchase that backup camera and sunvisor screen ??? $1,000.00 is the cheapest i can Find.
Click to expand...

Now that truly is an off topic post... you may want to try one of these threads;

http://www.chevyavalanchefanclub.com/cafcna/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=9485

http://www.chevyavalanchefanclub.com/cafcna/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=8868
 
jonboyNY said:
Thanx alot guys for the support.

Power...I will let you know for sure.

Welder.....interesting you mentioned the supra, we MIGHT do a staged TT setup...this is what I am leaning to, however we have to download all calibrations for the oem computer to reason things like fuel management issues etc. We will see what is the oppurtune situation. If it doesnt work, we will go with a turbo on each side. We will see.

Fireeater...the first project is the 5.3L once this works then we will push the 6.0L and the 8.1L. I can get my hands on a 6.0L truck, but an 8.1L I dont know yet.

Either way, its going forward and time is moving, so hopefully we will have a setup shortly.

Thanx again.
Click to expand...

If you truly want to test this kit on a stock 5.3L Av when you get it done, you can use mine. ;) I am only hours away... ;D
 
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